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    Premature Retriggeration (revisited)

    A similar situation was reported about a year ago in this forum
    http://board.homeseer.com/showthread.php?t=101111

    This time, due to a disappearing humidity sensor (a separate recent post I won't bother referring to here), mcsTemp is recording another sensors reading in the place of the disappeared one.

    In the example of edited recorded samples below you'll see 8300 show up twice, once at 7:46 and again at 7:52

    66475 06/01/2006 7:46:11 PM 8300
    66476 06/01/2006 7:47:11 PM 3300
    66477 06/01/2006 7:48:11 PM 3500
    66478 06/01/2006 7:49:11 PM 3500
    66479 06/01/2006 7:50:11 PM 3500
    66480 06/01/2006 7:51:11 PM 3500
    66481 06/01/2006 7:52:11 PM 8300
    66482 06/01/2006 7:53:12 PM 3500

    Problem is:

    2 events that monitor this sensor (and average it with another one) are not supposed to react to this problem unless the problem persists for 25 samplings (25 mins), however the events do trigger.

    See times of event log entries matching these samplings ("Upstairs" denotes the reading of the affected sensor):

    06/01/2006 7:46:26 PM~!~Event Trigger~!~Temperature Controls HVAC - Humidifier OFF and reset low humidity flag F8 Off (HVAC Furnace Humidifier)
    06/01/2006 7:46:26 PM~!~HVAC~!~HUMIDITY: Upstairs 83; Main Flr 34; Avg 58.5; Target: 38 - Humidifier Turned OFF

    06/01/2006 7:47:26 PM~!~Event Trigger~!~Temperature Controls HVAC - Humidifier and fan ON with low humidity + set flag F8 On (HVAC Furnace Humidifier)
    06/01/2006 7:47:26 PM~!~HVAC~!~HUMIDITY: Upstairs 33; Main Flr 35; Avg 34; Target: 38 - Humidifier Turned ON

    06/01/2006 7:52:27 PM~!~Event Trigger~!~Temperature Controls HVAC - Humidifier OFF and reset low humidity flag F8 Off (HVAC Furnace Humidifier)
    06/01/2006 7:52:27 PM~!~HVAC~!~HUMIDITY: Upstairs 83; Main Flr 34; Avg 58.5; Target: 38 - Humidifier Turned OFF

    06/01/2006 7:53:27 PM~!~Event Trigger~!~Temperature Controls HVAC - Humidifier and fan ON with low humidity + set flag F8 On (HVAC Furnace Humidifier)
    06/01/2006 7:53:27 PM~!~HVAC~!~HUMIDITY: Upstairs 35; Main Flr 35; Avg 35; Target: 38 - Humidifier Turned ON

    Attached is an excerpt from the config file that I think are the events in question. For fun, I tried changing the condition to "AND" instead of "OR" with same result.

    Have I just misunderstood what I'm supposed to enter to get the logic I want or is there something else going on?
    Attached Files
    Last edited by johnnyt; January 6, 2006, 08:26 PM. Reason: attachment updated

    #2
    I dont know how to read a single event entry in the xml file and the trigger is hex encoded so also not easily interpreted. Based upon the comments in the attachment it looks as if an OR condition is attempted on 2 sensors. This is not a capability of the Temperture trigger. There is one sensor that is the trigger sensor. A second sensor may come into play as a delta from the first, but the second sensor by iteself will not form part of the trigger condition.

    I should be able to read your entire xml file or a screen shot of the setup will also work to convey the setup you have.

    Comment


      #3
      I submitted the problem report talking about the OR condition but probably should have said "without selecting the AND condition" option (which I appear to have misinterpreted to mean OR) but I had set it up originally with the "AND" condition selected, which is what I thought meant "average the two sensors and use the average value to figure out if the event should trigger".

      Whether the sensors are "averaged", "OR'ed", "AND'ed", "delta'ed" or only one of them ends up being read and acted on, the condition is supposed to persist for 25 minutes, yet it happens as soon as one of my sensors goes "outside limits". That's what I'm really concerned about here.

      Have put the trigger back to AND as it was originally and attached a screenshot
      Attached Files

      Comment


        #4
        The AND / OR checkbox applies to the conditions that are listed below it. It does not apply to the sensors listed above it. For what you have setup the second sensor is ignored and the AND / OR checkbox makes no difference since there is only one condition checked below it.

        The trigger that you defined is to activate when the following exists for 25 minutes
        (R2 + R8) / 2 > S3 or (R2 + R8) / 2 < 0

        I understand from your prior post what you are indicating about the 25 minute dead time not appearing to work. I look into that.

        Comment


          #5
          I ran a test case similiar to yours with a 3 min presist and 5 min retrigger and the plugin properly dealt with everything. I added a two more lines of debug in the area where the trigger is evaluated. If you run with debug on it will generate the info of what is being evaluated and the internal logic states. It is V4.44.10.

          Comment


            #6
            Good to know about the functionality of "AND Condition" which I had intuitively applied to what was above it not what was below it, as is the case.

            Have turned on debug and changed the "persist" value to 5 and "retrigger" to 1 to make things happen a little quicker.

            Through about 45 mins of playing with it (manually unplugging/plugging the sensor to recreate the problem) behaviour has been as expected, i.e. no problem.

            Could the problem I'm encountering be related to some sort of mismatched combination of persist and retrigger. i.e. does a retrigger of 60 create conflict with a persist of 25, which is not a multiple of the other? In all cases where my triggers are working fine, I do note that retrigger and persist are a multiple of the other, e.g. 5 and 30, 15 and 60, 5 and 1. 0 and 1 also works fines.

            Looking ahead, I'll try some things based on that theory too but if you have any insight, it could reduce the time spent troubleshooting this.

            Comment


              #7
              When the conditions are satisfied then a software timer is set to trigger at the current time plus the persist duration. If this timer trips then the action is triggered and a second software timer is set that will trip at the current time plus the retrigger interval. When this second timer expires it will look to see if the condition is still satisfied and if so then trigger the action and set the second timer again.

              If at any time the condition becomes false then all timers are reset and the next trigger will be based on the original trigger persistance logic. When the retrigger interval or persist interval is large then there is a much greater chance that the timers are reset.

              Comment


                #8
                See Sensor #2 readings in the attached database excerpt. At the following times it reads the next humidity sensor on my bus, due to bus or some other error:

                5:32, 5:35, (5:39, 5:40), 6:10, 6:28, 6:34, 6:44, and (6:52, 6:53, 6:54)

                The first 7 occurrances do not trigger the event, but the 8th (after 2 of the 3 readings) does. Note: the persist value is 5.

                After event 1 is triggered, it takes 6 occurrances (7 mins) to trigger the alternate event after the sensor reappears, also set to persist for 5 mins.

                The second attachment has the debug log entries from 5:30 to 7:00
                You'll find the following log entries in there:

                08/01/2006 6:53:45 PM~!~HVAC~!~HUMIDITY: Upstairs 90; Main Flr 39; Avg 64.5; Target: 38 - Humidifier Turned OFF
                08/01/2006 6:53:45 PM~!~Event Trigger~!~Temperature Controls HVAC - HRV and Fan On if humid in HRV Season F7 On (HVAC HRV)

                08/01/2006 7:00:45 PM~!~Event Trigger~!~Temperature Controls HVAC - Humidifier ON with low humidity + set flag F8 On (HVAC Furnace Humidifier)
                08/01/2006 7:00:45 PM~!~HVAC~!~HUMIDITY: Upstairs 35; Main Flr 37; Avg 36; Target: 38 - Humidifier Turned ON


                It also happened again a bit later but I had turned debug off at that point:

                08/01/2006 7:24:50 PM~!~Event Trigger~!~Temperature Controls HVAC - Humidifier OFF and reset low humidity flag F8 Off (HVAC Furnace Humidifier)
                08/01/2006 7:24:50 PM~!~HVAC~!~HUMIDITY: Upstairs 40; Main Flr 37; Avg 38.5; Target: 38 - Humidifier Turned OFF
                08/01/2006 7:24:52 PM~!~Event Trigger~!~Delayed Trigger F8 Off (HVAC Furnace Humidifier)
                08/01/2006 7:25:51 PM~!~Event Trigger~!~Temperature Controls HVAC - Humidifier ON with low humidity + set flag F8 On (HVAC Furnace Humidifier)
                08/01/2006 7:25:51 PM~!~HVAC~!~HUMIDITY: Upstairs 37; Main Flr 37; Avg 37; Target: 38 - Humidifier Turned ON

                Here are the DB logs with 6 readings before and 6 readings after the one that caused the event to trigger:

                69322 08/01/2006 7:18:02 PM 6910 3500
                69323 08/01/2006 7:19:03 PM 6910 3500
                69324 08/01/2006 7:20:03 PM 6910 3500
                69325 08/01/2006 7:21:02 PM 6850 3500
                69326 08/01/2006 7:22:02 PM 6900 3500
                69327 08/01/2006 7:23:02 PM 6910 3700
                69328 08/01/2006 7:24:02 PM 6900 4000
                69329 08/01/2006 7:25:02 PM 6900 3700
                69330 08/01/2006 7:26:03 PM 6900 3700
                69331 08/01/2006 7:27:02 PM 6910 3700
                69332 08/01/2006 7:28:02 PM 6900 3700
                69333 08/01/2006 7:29:03 PM 6900 3500
                69334 08/01/2006 7:30:02 PM 6900 3500
                Attached Files

                Comment


                  #9
                  I focused on a segment that is attached and annotated with a question on a state flag changing unexpectedly. The only place that this flag is set is when the triggers are edited from the HS GUI and in that case all Temperature Trigger states are reset. The other is if their is an indexing problem within the evaluation sequence. I suspect the former, but I do not know what actions you may have been taking at the time.

                  I changed the logic to reset the Temperature Triggers only if the number of triggers have changed. I also added the index to the debug output. Updates are in V4.45.1

                  Code:
                  08/01/2006 6:51:44 PM~!~mcsTemperature Debug~!~OutsideBand Current=36, Lower=0, Upper=s3, Compare1=0, Compare2=38,trueConditions=0
                  
                  08/01/2006 6:52:44 PM~!~mcsTemperature Debug~!~OutsideBand Current=63.5, Lower=0, Upper=s3, Compare1=0, Compare2=38,trueConditions=1
                  08/01/2006 6:52:44 PM~!~mcsTemperature Debug~!~SampleEventTriggered=False, Trigger Repeat Time=08/01/2006 6:51:44 PM, TriggerDwell=5, DwellStart=08/01/2006 6:52:14 PM
                  
                  WHY DID SampleEventTriggered=False NOW BECOME TRUE BETWEEN 6:52 AND 6:53????
                  
                  08/01/2006 6:53:44 PM~!~mcsTemperature Debug~!~OutsideBand Current=64.5, Lower=0, Upper=s3, Compare1=0, Compare2=38,trueConditions=1
                  08/01/2006 6:53:44 PM~!~mcsTemperature Debug~!~SampleEventTriggered=True, Trigger Repeat Time=08/01/2006 6:51:44 PM, TriggerDwell=5, DwellStart=08/01/2006 6:53:44 PM
                  08/01/2006 6:53:45 PM~!~Event Trigger~!~Temperature Controls HVAC - Humidifier OFF and reset low humidity flag F8 Off (HVAC Furnace Humidifier)

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Will try the new version.

                    In the mean time, I'll assure you I'm not generally editing events using HS GUI when these events get triggers (I guess can't guarantee that for all cases, but most for sure). In fact, every morning these days I wake up to at least one, if not more, instances of the event having triggered due to one instance of the mysterious disappearing sensor followed by the "resetting" event one minute later (persist is still = 5 at this point) because the sensor reappeared (but not every time the sensor disappears/reappears)

                    I will mention some delayed events, unrelated to these, are being created through a regular "device status changes" trigger to start/stop my HRV 30 secs after my TR40 stat calls for heat/ends the call for heat. These can happen up to 5 heat cycles (10 events) per hour.

                    Here's an example from last night - while I was fast asleep -, including surrounding occurances of the heat/HRV calls, in case any of this info provides more clues.

                    10/01/2006 2:57:10 AM~!~HVAC~!~Heat call - Stage 1 - ON
                    10/01/2006 2:57:10 AM~!~HVAC~!~HRV ON in 30 seconds
                    10/01/2006 3:03:20 AM~!~HVAC~!~HRV OFF in 30 seconds
                    10/01/2006 3:03:20 AM~!~HVAC~!~Heat call - Stage 1 - OFF
                    10/01/2006 3:09:40 AM~!~HVAC~!~Heat call - Stage 1 - ON
                    10/01/2006 3:09:40 AM~!~HVAC~!~HRV ON in 30 seconds
                    10/01/2006 3:09:56 AM~!~Event Trigger~!~Temperature Controls HVAC - Humidifier OFF and reset low humidity flag F8 Off (HVAC Furnace Humidifier)
                    10/01/2006 3:09:56 AM~!~HVAC~!~HUMIDITY: Upstairs 91; Main Flr 37; Avg 64; Target: 38 - Humidifier Turned OFF
                    10/01/2006 3:09:58 AM~!~Event Trigger~!~Delayed Trigger F8 Off (HVAC Furnace Humidifier)
                    10/01/2006 3:10:56 AM~!~Event Trigger~!~Temperature Controls HVAC - Humidifier ON with low humidity + set flag F8 On (HVAC Furnace Humidifier)
                    10/01/2006 3:10:56 AM~!~HVAC~!~HUMIDITY: Upstairs 35; Main Flr 39; Avg 37; Target: 38 - Humidifier Turned ON
                    10/01/2006 3:10:58 AM~!~Event Trigger~!~Delayed Trigger F8 On (HVAC Furnace Humidifier)
                    10/01/2006 3:16:30 AM~!~HVAC~!~HRV OFF in 30 seconds
                    10/01/2006 3:16:30 AM~!~HVAC~!~Heat call - Stage 1 - OFF
                    10/01/2006 3:17:58 AM~!~Event Trigger~!~Temperature Controls HVAC - Humidifier OFF and reset low humidity flag F8 Off (HVAC Furnace Humidifier)
                    10/01/2006 3:17:58 AM~!~HVAC~!~HUMIDITY: Upstairs 91; Main Flr 37; Avg 64; Target: 38 - Humidifier Turned OFF
                    10/01/2006 3:18:00 AM~!~Event Trigger~!~Delayed Trigger F8 Off (HVAC Furnace Humidifier)
                    10/01/2006 3:20:53 AM~!~Info~!~weatherXML successfully retrieved weather data
                    10/01/2006 3:22:40 AM~!~HVAC~!~Heat call - Stage 1 - ON
                    10/01/2006 3:22:40 AM~!~HVAC~!~HRV ON in 30 seconds
                    10/01/2006 3:22:59 AM~!~Event Trigger~!~Temperature Controls HVAC - Humidifier ON with low humidity + set flag F8 On (HVAC Furnace Humidifier)
                    10/01/2006 3:22:59 AM~!~HVAC~!~HUMIDITY: Upstairs 37; Main Flr 39; Avg 38; Target: 38 - Humidifier Turned ON
                    10/01/2006 3:23:02 AM~!~Event Trigger~!~Delayed Trigger F8 On (HVAC Furnace Humidifier)
                    10/01/2006 3:32:30 AM~!~HVAC~!~HRV OFF in 30 seconds
                    10/01/2006 3:32:30 AM~!~HVAC~!~Heat call - Stage 1 - OFF
                    10/01/2006 3:38:40 AM~!~HVAC~!~Heat call - Stage 1 - ON
                    10/01/2006 3:38:40 AM~!~HVAC~!~HRV ON in 30 seconds
                    10/01/2006 3:44:40 AM~!~HVAC~!~HRV OFF in 30 seconds
                    10/01/2006 3:44:40 AM~!~HVAC~!~Heat call - Stage 1 - OFF
                    10/01/2006 3:50:40 AM~!~HVAC~!~Heat call - Stage 1 - ON
                    10/01/2006 3:50:40 AM~!~HVAC~!~HRV ON in 30 seconds
                    10/01/2006 3:56:50 AM~!~HVAC~!~HRV OFF in 30 seconds
                    10/01/2006 3:56:50 AM~!~HVAC~!~Heat call - Stage 1 - OFF

                    Here are the relavant DB entries

                    71233 10/01/2006 3:08:57 AM 7120 3700
                    71234 10/01/2006 3:09:57 AM 7130 9100
                    71235 10/01/2006 3:10:57 AM 7100 3500
                    71236 10/01/2006 3:11:57 AM 7130 3500
                    71237 10/01/2006 3:12:58 AM 7120 3500
                    71238 10/01/2006 3:13:57 AM 7100 3500
                    71239 10/01/2006 3:14:57 AM 7140 9100
                    71240 10/01/2006 3:15:57 AM 7100 9100
                    71241 10/01/2006 3:16:57 AM 7120 3500
                    71242 10/01/2006 3:17:57 AM 7120 9100
                    71243 10/01/2006 3:18:57 AM 7120 3700
                    71244 10/01/2006 3:19:58 AM 7120 3700
                    71245 10/01/2006 3:20:57 AM 7130 3700
                    71246 10/01/2006 3:21:57 AM 7100 3700
                    71247 10/01/2006 3:22:58 AM 7100 3700
                    71248 10/01/2006 3:23:57 AM 7100 3500

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I was not claiming that you were doing things that disrubt the logic. I was simply disclosing that the problem I found was a state flag changed to TRUE in a one minute period and the only logic in the plugin that sets this state is the edit of an event and the control logic that is repeated for each event in the TemperatureTrigger event list. To reduce the potential of the event edit I made a change. To address the potential problem of then event index into the list I added debug code to include the index display. We have not got to the root cause yet, but we will.

                      The debug output is what will be usefull. The confirmation that the event edit is not a potential source of problem is usefull. The log output without debug does demonstrate the problem continues to occur, but does not provide insight into why.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        The problem appears to be fixed. Have not noticed any problems with the new version, although I've only monitored the situation lightly for lack of time until today.

                        Today's experimenting, however, has demonstrated that the persist value is working as expected.

                        Thanks for looking into it as quickly as you did.

                        Comment

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