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  • Guest
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Michael McSharry View Post
    Homeseer’s production product is HS3. It is unfortunate that the product has not been updated since Aug 2019
    We all know this is because of Covid-19

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  • kriz83
    replied
    Some valid points you got there Michael McSharry .

    On the other hand, a project/product that hasn't received updates for the last 9 months, gives the impression that it is abandoned. It's not like there are no issues with HSTouch or HSMobile. They look like abandonware to me TBH.

    Compare it to HomeAssistant for example. A fixed release schedule, every 2 weeks (followed by a couple of bug fixes...). That's the way you should do software development nowadays.

    Let's not forget, HS4 will take many months before it is stable and the number of bugs has dropped to acceptable levels. The JSON design choice is very worrying to me.

    Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G965F met Tapatalk



    Leave a comment:


  • Michael McSharry
    replied
    So my customers are building new houses - I provide consulting services on automation systems. So, currently, I can't advise choosing HS unfortunately. Because it's unclear which version to install.
    So what do you recommend to your customers as being the best HA product to install today? If HS4 was already released would you recommend a relatively immature product for new HA users or would you recommend one that has become stable with years of field testing? Some customers want cutting edge and some want maturity. Seems like they would be able to help make a decision, especially since they are the customer.

    Leave a comment:


  • sirmeili
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael McSharry View Post
    Homeseer’s production product is HS3. It is unfortunate that the product has not been updated since Aug 2019, but this does not detract from the capability provided in HS3. I had added new HS3 plugins this year and I continually respond to user feedback and grow existing HS3 plugins.
    True production environments dont' stop updates because they have a new version in Beta. They continue bug fixes in the production while rolling those changes into the Beta as well.*

    The fact that ti's been 9 months that HS3 hasn't had updates, that there are known bugs, should be a concern for anyone recommending HS3 for commercial reasons because from what I've read about HS4, it has a ways to go. I'll keep bringing up the fact that they decided to use a JSON file for the device DB storage. Now they are in a rush to fix that, which will ultimately lead to more issues. They didn't decide to do an incremental change in some parts and it's going to really hurt them.

    *edit: Of course I'm talking about when doing a beta for a major release. It is completely acceptable to do smaller betas for fixes on your current production release version pushing those out, but those would come much faster. These are often called previews to allow a small subset of users to test the issues before going to the user base at large. Homeseer has followed this in the past, but they shouldn't be ignoring HS3 while betaing HS4.

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  • sirmeili
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael McSharry View Post
    I acknowledge that plugins can take much time to develop and support. If there was a good ROI for a plugin then I would have expected HST to have monopolized that revenue segment. In general, a plugin has a very poor ROI so anybody that is doing it for a revenue stream will be disappointed. HST, however, is able to benefit from the developer’s time investment with the 30% royalty. Just administering the business side of plugin sales does come at a cost to HST. I suspect the original 20% royalty did not cover this cost. I have been a principle in a few companies and I know that the cut HST is taking from plugin sales is biased in favor of the developer. Developers who want to make money on software should find a market with a much higher volume rather that the relatively small Homeseer market. If they want to be part of a robust and widely varied community then this is a good place to hang a hat.
    I would find it more likely that HST, much like many other companies just followed suit when Apple and Google started charging 30%.

    Leave a comment:


  • alexbk66
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael McSharry View Post
    Homeseer’s production product is HS3. It is unfortunate that the product has not been updated since Aug 2019, but this does not detract from the capability provided in HS3. I had added new HS3 plugins this year and I continually respond to user feedback and grow existing HS3 plugins.....
    It's good... But, again, as I said before, the current situation isn't too good, and as plugin developer I think you should understand the problem I'm facing.

    But I explain again.

    So my customers are building new houses - I provide consulting services on automation systems. So, currently, I can't advise choosing HS unfortunately. Because it's unclear which version to install.

    HS3? It's in EOL state - many developers won't even provide support for HS3 plugin versions. New plugins will be only for HS4. And there's no simple and free upgrade route to HS4. If I do recommend HS3 now - and in a few months I tell my customers they have to pay for HS and plugin upgrades? It will damage my reputation - because they will reckon I'm crook trying to get extra $$$.

    HS4? You know the situation... When it's gonna be production quality? Who knows? When (if) all plugins will be ported to HS4? Who knows?

    And people can't wait for another 6 months, they need now.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael McSharry
    replied
    Homeseer’s production product is HS3. It is unfortunate that the product has not been updated since Aug 2019, but this does not detract from the capability provided in HS3. I had added new HS3 plugins this year and I continually respond to user feedback and grow existing HS3 plugins.

    I do not have an equity stake in HST, nor am I part of the decision making team at the company’s helm. I do not feel HST has any obligation to me to discuss their business strategy. I have made the gamble that HST will remain solvent and relevant. It is a risk I take that has has not failed me in the last 20 years.

    I consider it healthy that HST has invested in product update to remain a player in the HA marketplace. I do not follow other HA products, but I do not recall seeing info on next year’s Home Assistant or OpenHab. It seems disclosure by HST of HS4 is being viewed by some as a negative thing while I see it as something positive that shows HST is vibrant. This view does not change just because the HS4 did not make its original marketing release date.

    Something I have seen since the original HS is that contributions from the community have moved from scripts to plugins and those developing plugins are often motivated by revenue rather than sharing and helping. Everybody needs to decide for themselves what avenues they are going to use for income. They need to assess their supplier base and make decisions of the risk they are willing to accept for each. Jobs are not guaranteed. Suppliers are not guaranteed. Positive relationships with employer and suppliers should yield a better long term business prospect.

    I acknowledge that plugins can take much time to develop and support. If there was a good ROI for a plugin then I would have expected HST to have monopolized that revenue segment. In general, a plugin has a very poor ROI so anybody that is doing it for a revenue stream will be disappointed. HST, however, is able to benefit from the developer’s time investment with the 30% royalty. Just administering the business side of plugin sales does come at a cost to HST. I suspect the original 20% royalty did not cover this cost. I have been a principle in a few companies and I know that the cut HST is taking from plugin sales is biased in favor of the developer. Developers who want to make money on software should find a market with a much higher volume rather that the relatively small Homeseer market. If they want to be part of a robust and widely varied community then this is a good place to hang a hat.

    For me a plugin is a segue to more deeply explore a technology and ability to share what I have learned. Perhaps a way to go back to my days teaching at the University. I am not encumbered with trying to use HST as part of a revenue stream so am more tolerant of the daily progress of each new HS release visible on this message board. I am just happy the amusement park is still open and I am able to enjoy the rides.

    Leave a comment:


  • alexbk66
    replied
    Originally posted by Rupp View Post

    Why do you say HS3 is obsolete? There are still a lot of users running HS2 and that was retired years ago.
    Because I can't recommend to the new users to pay $600 for the product with uncertain future and no clean/free way of upgrading to new version.

    My clients building new houses - do you think I can suggest them to install HS3?

    Rupp just get real, don't play stupid

    [EDIT]

    Seriously Rupp you still live in the era when you didn't have much competition, and you could be rude and arrogant to your users, and the users had to absorb it.

    Things have changed Hello from a HomeSeer HS4 Refugee

    Remeber what happened to Nokia 10 years ago?

    Click image for larger version

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  • Rupp
    replied
    Originally posted by alexbk66 View Post
    I'm pissed off because I have customers - and a few new customers - who need automation, some building new houses and need to make the decision NOW.

    I was promoting HomeSeer (obviously) - but now I can't recommend HomeSeer (obviously) - because HS3 is obsolete but HS4 doesn't exist. And customers need automation NOW.

    And all this "strategy" (not) affected my income. And all we hear from HST - oh, bad apples, just shut up...
    Why do you say HS3 is obsolete? There are still a lot of users running HS2 and that was retired years ago.

    Leave a comment:


  • alexbk66
    replied
    I'm pissed off because I have customers - and a few new customers - who need automation, some building new houses and need to make the decision NOW.

    I was promoting HomeSeer (obviously) - but now I can't recommend HomeSeer (obviously) - because HS3 is obsolete but HS4 doesn't exist. And customers need automation NOW.

    And all this "strategy" (not) affected my income. And all we hear from HST - oh, bad apples, just shut up...

    Leave a comment:


  • sirmeili
    replied
    Originally posted by simplextech View Post
    alexbk66 nailed it on the head and it's time for a freeze and re-grouping?
    This is an issue i deal with daily. We are 6 months behind on our project. Unrealistic expectations, overworking people to meet impossible deadlines and the refusal to step back and look at the issue realistically. HS4 was supposed to be out in November (I believe). I find that people get hyper focused on dates and refuse to take the reality of the situation into account. Sometimes you need to just step back and re-evaluate. this might mean pushing deadlines out well past where they are desired, but the end product will be so much better.

    I haven't tried HS4 in 6ish months (mostly due to lack of time), but based on some of the posts (like using JSON as a storage DB for devices) shows me this is still more than likely in the alpha stage and not beta. Too many important decisions are being rushed and in the end it will severely hurt the product as a whole and therefore sales and customer satisfaction.

    the short of it is: HST needs to regroup really think about the reality of where they are and where they can be and when they can get there.

    Leave a comment:


  • simplextech
    replied
    Originally posted by kriz83 View Post
    Not sure about the HS3 plugin announcement. I probably just missed it. I do agree on the terrible communication, it is starting to become the trademark of HST unfortunately. All I can say is that my plugin sales have severly dropped.

    I am on the HA board too (as Devastator). I have completely abandonned the HS ship after the HS4 "announcement". I will keep on supporting/creating plugins, but I will not be using HS myself anymore. Maybe in the future I switch back, but currently I prefer the abilities (and UI) of HA.

    I am installing the beta from time to time, to see what is at play.

    Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G965F met Tapatalk


    The ban of "new" HS3 plugins was what made my decision to completely leave plugin development and give plugins to other developers. I knew from the start and previews of HS4 I wasn't going to use it myself so I wouldn't develop for it. I would have continued using and developing for HS3 but the "ban" killed that so I just walked away completely. Stopped using HS entirely.

    Lack of communication, bad communication, bad decisions around communication, bad decisions around tools and bug tracking.... wow... what's next? Maybe alexbk66 nailed it on the head and it's time for a freeze and re-grouping?

    Leave a comment:


  • kriz83
    replied
    Not sure about the HS3 plugin announcement. I probably just missed it. I do agree on the terrible communication, it is starting to become the trademark of HST unfortunately. All I can say is that my plugin sales have severly dropped.

    I am on the HA board too (as Devastator). I have completely abandonned the HS ship after the HS4 "announcement". I will keep on supporting/creating plugins, but I will not be using HS myself anymore. Maybe in the future I switch back, but currently I prefer the abilities (and UI) of HA.

    I am installing the beta from time to time, to see what is at play.

    Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G965F met Tapatalk



    Leave a comment:


  • alexbk66
    replied
    Originally posted by ChrisH
    If anyone is interested in other discussion about HS4 there is an ongoing thread here
    https://community.home-assistant.io/...er-hs4-refugee
    Well, jseer , Rupp , rjh - it looks like there's quite a few "bad apples" out there?

    I suggest you finally admit your F#UP. And do something about it. Probably just take an extension with HS4 - and apologise to the users and plugin developers.

    And probably refund the poor users who made a mistake of paying for the upgrade upfront - putting too much trust in you development abilities.

    I'm exploring HA too.

    Leave a comment:


  • simplextech
    replied
    Originally posted by jseer View Post

    Thank you for bringing this up. Yes we did make a mistake in that decision and that restriction was removed based on the feedback we received. It's been many months of HS3 plugin submissions and I wanted to ensure that sirmeili was not experiencing this. I was not trying to claim "ignorance", simply trying to help. (no good deed goes unpunished).
    I think you missed the point of the problem.....

    1. HST says no more HS3 plugins
    2. Developer uproar
    3. HST doesn't care, no communications...
    4. Uproar posting... deleted... gone... never happened
    5. HST "allows" HS3 plugins again... Quietly... no communication....
    6. Posts that HS3 plugins are being approved... since when? Nobody knew about this... no communication.

    I think the problem we have here is a lack of communication? Which BTW was the heated topic of yet another post from the private developer forum. Go figure. This HS3 plugin ban was also a reason I stopped developing for HS. I wasn't going to support dual HS3/HS4 plugins and I wasn't going to develop for a alpha/beta product. Removing the ability to sell HS3 plugins killed development from me. Now you're reverting this and without communication? Hmm.. back to that communication issue.

    alexbk66 sirmeili stefxx bpwwer kriz83 Michael McSharry

    I tagged some of the other developers that have been active to keep me honest. Curious though... there's A LOT of developers that are MIA for a long time. Since HS4 alpha and HS3 plugin ban.... curious.

    Leave a comment:

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