Script Library Database?

[GenevaDude]

Steve,

I may be all alone in this but what the heck! I'll try to explain why I'm so against this.

1. Casual users: We have quite a few visitors to the HomeSeer message board, and we have lots of newbies. We can't expect them to have HS running to obtain scripts. Having to run another "utility" is going to restrict the interaction between the scripts and the user. With IE running, it is easy to pop between the board topics, look at the download files, and decide what to do. People that contribute scripts (as opposed to those that sell scripts) would probably like to keep it more intimate, rather than disassociating their work from the board.

2. Browsers: This is actually two meanings in one. Browsers as in what people do when they visit the board, scan messages and click on the files to see what they look like. They are probably trying to learn and want a casual interface with the board and scripts. Browsers as in IE5, 6 or Netscape: allows you to click on the scripts and download them or view the text file in html format. This is a very comfortable format for everybody because you do this everywhere else. Go to CNET or Downloads, and browse, find a file, read what it does and download it if you wish - all from one window.

3. Location: I frequently browse the message board from one of four different computers. Rarely do I use my HomeControl computer to browse. I want to see and download scripts while in my browser. I can unzip them if necessary and look at them. Then when I'm home, I can grab them if I decide to. I really don't see any possibility to do this the way it is being proposed.

I'm afraid that the method proposed will make it very difficult to do without HomeSeer running. I don't know why it is so necessary to change things, if the way it is now works. The only changes we want are to be able to sort in the browser window.

I think you need to look at it from the users perspective and how they interact with the message board. My concern is that you are looking at it from a commercial viewpoint, and not the visitors'. Keep in mind in your decision, the visitor, the newbie, the casual user and the convenience of the Browser (IE), as this is where the growth comes from for HomeSeer. We want to grow HomeSeer and to do that the message board - with scripts included - is the only way.


regards,

GenevaDude

[ajgyomber]

Yeah, we are on different planets! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] From a new user standpoint, the updater is by far the best method of installing any addition to HomeSeer whether it be a plug-in or a script. No need to read instructions if the installer does it's job. Everyone that uses Windows is accustomed to "Windows Update" so it's a pretty easy transition to use "HomeSeer Updater" for updates to the software.

I think a much needed enhacement to the Updater would be a hyperlink to more information about the particular script or plug-in you are looking at. Then the authors could put up a web page with screenshots, description, features, etc. It would make it much easier for users to see if the item suits their needs.

The message board is designed for messages, the updater is designed for updating your software! For those of us that like lookig at the package directly prior to installing it into HomeSeer, use my "Updates Status" ASP page and the problem is solved.

All-in-all, if you ask me where I want Rich to invest his resources then I say in the HomeSeer product itself and not the Updater.

// AJ

My Links: Website | HomeSeer Status | System Description

[CFGuy]

Hmm, my HomeSeer doesn't have an updater.

[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Jeff Farmer

[shill]

Am I missing something, Jeff?

[CFGuy]

Just trying to lighten the mood.

And the reason my HomeSeer doesn't have an updater is because I'm still running version 1.5.42 Beta.

I had built up a pile of hardware (to be installed someday) and finally had to make a rule for myself that I can not upgrade until I get everything installed. Its hard to justify new toys when so many were just sitting on the shelf not being used. I have finally gotten down to two things left to do. Then I can upgrade and have all the new HomeSeer toys to play with.

Although as far as the updater goes, I don't see it being much use for me even when I do upgrade. I don't use the GUI. If I need something and its not web accessible then I write a page to make it web accessible (if possible). Like the setup for the MR26A. I wrote a web page to allow editing its settings.

When I posted the link to the Cold Fusion site, I really wasn't trying to talk anyone into using Cold Fusion. Just pointing out that I really like the way that site works for developers sharing their stuff.

I can do a search and get a page that shows:

Author, Date Written, A description of the tag (Not a short one line name of the thread.)
I can tell from the description if its something I'm interested in. I can see if there is a price on it and skip it if there is. I can set the sort order based on Author, Price, Date Submitted (Usually a good indicator of what version it was written for), number of downloads which is somewhat of an indicator of how easy to use it is, what categories it is in.

The current forums does not allow this without going into every thread. Again, I'm not trying to talk anyone into it. Yes, I think it would be better than what we have, others don't. And that is a good thing.

Jeff Farmer

[rjh]

I think maybe a combination of both might work. First, I cannot tell you how many people call me and say:

"I see a ton of scripts on your message board, but I have no clue on how to install or use them".

For those of you who can download and install scripts manually, the library works fine for you. For me, I want point and click installs. The updater is the way to go, and I encourage script writers to take advantage of it.

As more scripts get added to the updater I can add the ability to refine the display more. There aren't enough scripts there to do that yet.

All the scripts and updates are stored on an FTP site. There is no reason why a dynamic web page could not be created that would displayed all the scripts available based on what is at the FTP site. Maybe a tag file gets uploaded with each ftp archive so the list could be built. This makes it easy for writers to upload new scripts. That way the updater and scripts page could stay in sync. The web page would be useful for browsing and deciding what scripts a user wanted, maybe longer descriptions and pictures. I want to push for the use of the upater for installs though.

-Rich

HomeSeer Technologies LLC

[Rupp]

All this talk of the updater. How does one code their scripts to use the updater. Maybe if this topic received a little more attention, this whole issue would subside. I personally haven't used the updater because of its infancy and the FACT that there is no way to remove a script or plugin. This should have been part of the updater prior to all the scripts and plugins being added. It ALL seems like a good idea but appears from the outside as an idea that may not have been thought through. I see nothing wrong with a combination of both systems. Write a script and place it in the script library. After a BETA testing phase, package it up using the updater / un-installer. Seems simple enough.

-Rupp
...One Nation Under GOD, Indivisible, With Liberty And Justice For All.

[GenevaDude]

Rich,

Probably the biggest problem with the script library is the hierarchy itself. It only provides top level organization. Once inside a forum, there is absolutely no organization. The same thig applies to messages that follow the script. When a plugin is available there is a top level listing but this is all there is. As the number of plugins grows, it might be better to organize them into a Plugin forum with each catagory listing the product and topic, which keeps the top level reasonably clean.

Scripts can be organized into sub forums much the same way. An example:
<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
Scripts.................................... (top level)
Web Based Scripts ....................... (second level)
[script] Ultra View2 Status ........... (lowest level)
[Discussions] Ultra View2 Status....... (lowest level)
[script][ASP] Device by Location (Collapsible)
[Discussions] Device by Location (Collapsible)

Weather Scripts ....
[script] Weather Warnings
[Discussions] Weather Warnings
[script] AT&T Voices Weather Report Version 1.30
[Discussions] AT&T Voices Weather Report Version 1.30
Miscilaneous ....
[script] This set of scripts will keep a log of people visiting your
home while you are away.
[Discussions] This set of scripts will keep a log of people visiting your
home while you are away.
Archives ....
and so on.
</pre>

This way discussions will not get lost over time, as they seem to now. Questions will less likely get asked two or three times. It will take more maintenance at first but as everyone settles in, the maintenance will be quite simple.

I really don't see how anyone but the power user will benefit from having a seperate utility to manage downloads. I agree that there is value once a script is installed, but this is in no way going to benefit the average guy that is just starting out. But this is best for "mainstream" plugins and scripts that have grown in popularity.

Just how do you guys propose viewing the updater when your not at your HomeSeer computer anyway?

GenevaDude

[Rupp]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Just how do you guys propose viewing the updater when your not at your HomeSeer computer anyway?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Couldn't we use A.J. Gyombers update status page? I agree that it is fast becoming a techo miracle to get and install a script recently with all the includes and ini files and many, many versions of the same script. The answer would be a very good installer/de-installer that is plug and play.

-Rupp
...One Nation Under GOD, Indivisible, With Liberty And Justice For All.

[GenevaDude]

Rupp,

Does the page require you to be running the HS Server? Or do you mean we go to A.J.'s web site? Point being, how do I browse from work, as an example?

GenevaDude

[rjh]

Docs on how to package scripts in the updater are in the link in the scripts forum description. Its very simple, just create a "install.txt" file that describes where the files belong.

I agree the updater needs to be able to uninstall scripts, and thats coming soon.

-Rich

HomeSeer Technologies LLC

[Rupp]

If it had been a snake it would have bit me. I need to pay more attention to the descriptions of the subjects.

-Rupp
...One Nation Under GOD, Indivisible, With Liberty And Justice For All.

[MediaStorm]

There is no reason that a solution that meets both needs could not be built.

It doesn't really matter what the backend technology is (ColdFusion, .NET, PERL, PHP, etc.) as long as it is well executed and coordinated with the updater team.

Imagine an online source similar to the referenced Macromedia Developer Exchange on the website and the same or subset data used in the updater itself. If all of the details are in a database then anything is possible.

Both sources could easily share the same dataset and minimize the amount of work required for HomeSeer Staff, volunteers and developers to keep the data up to date and easy to publish.

I'm thinking common db backend, the updater uses the datafields it needs and the online version uses the fields it needs and they share as much common data elements as possible. Beyond that you might as well provide a way to make WSDL/SOAP connections too and then anyone who doesn't like either of those solutions or has a better idea how to leverage the stuff can do it and EVERYONE still shares the same core data. The updater could then still be used to install stuff, you could browse the available scripts/apps/objects via whichever interface you prefered and everyone lives happily ever after. (Well, in theory at least. &lt;g&gt; )

My point is that there is NO right way or wrong way for this to be done as long as a centralized data repository is the base source of where the detailed data lives. It's not possible to be a one size fits all solution that meets everyones needs or vision of a perfect solution but by doing a little planning collectively and a little effort to setup the initial interfaces to the data we can all have exactly what we want and leverage it in the current methods as well as (most important) other ways that none of us has thought of yet.

If we can all at least agree on an approach we can at least start moving forward on something vs. trying to interject our opinions of the perfect solution which differ from user to user. If we wait until everyone agrees on the perfect solution we'll never be able to even get started.

[GenevaDude]

MediaStorm

If your solution would be accessable through the HomeSeer message board, and can be linked to discussion threads, then it makes sense. My major concern is that we have a method of posting script, scriptlets, one liners, etc... without any organization. A searchable database with keywords, or even tabbed selections could work.

I want to be able to casually browse. If I want to get specific, then there needs to be a well defined method easliy understood by all. When visitors are on the message board, they ought to be able to see the wealth of scripts, plugins, and converstations in an organized format. This could [will!] be a selling tool for HomeSeer!

Like you, I don't care how it is constructed, but the current methods have become obsolete. The search engine works but it could be better. It assumes you know what you are looking for. It does not address the casual borwser, nor does it address the user who is not really sure what they are looking for. Maybe we need to employ a Google engine, but I'm not sure it addresses all needs.

The updater is a completely different subject. It addresses a completely different need. The two concepts cannot and should not be combined. If the updater had a basic configuration that provided the "essentials", with some built in intellegence for the users needs, the tool could be more practical. If it were possible to "register" a download (I'm speaking of free scripts and scriptlets) with the Updater, then whenever an author creates a new version, the user would be prompted. The user should have a link to the message thread to see what has been done and decide if this is something they want to update.

regards, [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

GenevaDude