Chronically confused about relays

[devanb]

My ultimate goal is to control my floor heating with homeseer. It's a thermostat from WarmUp.

I was hoping to use a qubino relay of some sort but I'm getting confused about the term dry contact. They have many different relays and I'm not sure where to start.

The thermostat has only a load / line / neutral with a built in gfci. I don't want to replace the thermostat, only add z wave control.

I've attached the installation manual for the thermostat. The qubino catalog was too large to upload. I'm considering the Flush 1 relay, the Flush 1D relay, Flush on/Off Thermostat 2.

I also plan to use a separate homeseer floor sensor for temperature based events. The qubino temp sensor is too short for my use.

Thank you,

Devan

[randy]

Unfortunately a Z-Wave relay will not work. The thermostat is rated at 15A and 3600W. In order to get 3600W out of 15A it would have to be at 240V. The Aeotec heavy duty smart switch DSC078 will handle it, there may be others.

[devanb]

Bummer. Although the thermostat is capable of using 240V, I'm only using a 120V and a neutral. I'm reading that the maximum wattage of such a setup is about 1440 watts.

If I measure the voltage and amps and find it less that 2300W, could I still use a relay? If I did, would I lose the functioning thermostat?

Thanks,

Devan

[randy]

The Zooz ZEN15 is rated for 15A (1800W) at 120V, it would handle anything the thermostat would at 120V. It would control the heater, but as far as your current thermostat, it would depend on how you want to use it. You could use the Zooz to turn the supply to the thermostat off. There would be no way to use the thermostat interactively with the Zooz module. Or you could install a Z-Wave thermostat, then use it to control the Zooz which in turn controlled the heater.

[Michel]

My ultimate goal is to control my floor heating with homeseer.

Decaseer, I would not recommend controlling heating directly with homeseer. HS is VERY reliable but what if your controller crashes while the heat command is ON.

I agree with rprade that controlling the thermostat who is controlling the heating is a better and also much safer approach. The challenge however is to find a GFCI Z-Wave thermostat as GFCI is usually mandatory for floor heating. Moving the GFCI aspect to the main panel can be costly and might not even be acceptable (to be verified based on location). I so far did not stumbled on a GFCI Z-Wave T-Stat. Sinopé makes a very good Zigbee version

[MattMan]

What did you end up doing with your project? I'm purchasing the 4iE-03BL model from WarmUp for my heated floor. I previously used SunTouch and was happy. That model not has Alexa integration so you can create a voice routine with Alexa to deploy commands with the WarmUp skill added to your Alexa. What were you hoping to accomplish with a HomeSeer integration or what type of event? Just curious?

[devanb]

I have done nothing with this project. Still waiting for a heated floor thermostat with an API I can integrate into either homeseer or node red.

I currently have a non-wifi Warmup thermostat with a strange landscape orientated installation. If I upgrade to a wifi enabled one, I'll probably stick with this brand just so I don't have to make any new holes in the drywall.

There is a wifi enabled thermostat which integrates into IFTTT. It'll work but I'm not too enthusiastic. As always, I'd prefer control over the local network (Z wave or IP).

[andredemontreal]

Electric floor heating automation with HS4

I want to automate my existing bathroom floor heating with HS4
I simply want to switch between normal temperature (about 24 C) and shower (about 34 C)
It takes less than 30 minutes to heat up, it is so nice to take a shower with a warm floor
I now have an OJ Electronics non programmable thermostat with 5mA GFCI model UTN4-4999 (sold by Schluter as DITRA-HEAT-E-R)


One way is to purchase an OJ Electronics Wifi programmable touchscreen thermostat model UWG4-4999 and discard the existing one
Quite expensive: 350 $ CAD
Also, do I need a Wifi plugin? Easy configuration? Reliable automation? I have no experience with Wifi devices on HS4...


Another approach is to keep my existing thermostat to have the GFCI function, HI limit protection (set temperature become hi limit) and actual temperature display
I would add a Z-Wave hidden temperature controller connected to the spare floor temperature sensor
The Qubino Flush On/Off Thermostat ZMNHID Z-Wave looks good except it uses a 3 wire digital sensor that seems not compatible with my spare 10k ohms thermistor embedded in my floor
I need to find a temperature controller compatible with thermistor and able to switch 1080W at 240V
One thing I dislike is to have the floor embedded temperature sensor connected to a non isolated 240VAC controller (although the GFCI ahead would protect me...)


Another option:
I have Remotec ZTS-500 low voltage thermostats on hand
I need to cut the internal thermostat sensor and connect instead the existing floor sensor. I believe they are compatible.
Then, I need a 240V relay and 24V transformer and hide everything in the basement
I would keep my existing thermostat to keep the GFCI function, HI limit protection and actual temperature display


Another option:
Aube/Honeywell TH115-AF-GA programmable thermostat with GFCI and external floor sensor
It has a discrete input for Energy Saving Vacation Mode
I could connect a dry contact relay controlled by HS4
The drawback is when the relay contact is closed, it is jammed in Vacation Mode, no way to change mode on the front panel
But it would satisfy my needs...
It is also quite expensive 240 $ CAD plus the Z-Wave relay module...

Or
Replace the existing thermostat with a Stelpro STZW402+ thermostat
This is what I use everywhere here and I like it pretty much
I need to cut the internal thermostat sensor and connect instead the existing floor sensor. I believe they are compatible.
One thing I dislike is to have the floor embedded temperature sensor connected to a non isolated 240VAC controller (although the GFCI ahead would protect me...)
Again, I would keep my existing thermostat only to keep the GFCI function, but it would be hidden this time since the Stelpro provides a good user interface


Stelpro has a programmable floor heating thermostat model STCPW5
But:
Not remote controllable
Does not allow more than 28C
Cumbersome user interface, too many buttons and numbers...


It seems there is nothing easy for floor heating
I dream of a cost effective Z-Wave thermostat with GFCI, external 10k sensor and simple user interface


Anybody have success or have a good idea?

Thank-You

André

[Michel]

Hi André,

Just adding to your reflection :

You obviously realize the importance of keeping the GFCI integrity for floor heating. On the same token, when it comes to your heating system, I personally feel it is important to keep components as close as possible of their genuine design. So snipping out an on board sensor to connect your spare 10K might not be the preferred option. Even if selling your home is not part of your plan yet...it might be some day and you will be happy to have kept things genuine, as your potential buyer might not be as tech savvy as you are. This reflection goes back to a couple of years and from it I came-up with one of my life guidelines "It is not because I'm able to do it that I should do it"

Stelpro STZW402+ : I bought those as soon as they came out a few years ago and it is true that they work great. The down side was that they do not have an autonomous schedule feature. So again, in the eventuality of selling, they become dumb thermostats for the buyer. Stelpro was also suppose to come-up with a floor version and they never did so like you I was stuck with my plans. Finally, this Stelpro thermostat only "cuts" L1 when there is no call for heat and if I'm not mistaken, you absolutely need to "cut" L1 and L2 for floor heating.

Here's another approach. Replace your existing UTN4-4999 thermostat by a Sinopé TH1300ZB. Priced at : $187 CAD. It is not Z-Wave but Zigbee. Adding Zigbee to your system would open it to more devices. If I'm right, there are currently (3) ways to add Zigbee to your system.

1. Add the HS Zigbee USB dongle and use the built-in HS plug-in. From what I saw, it is still in the early stage.
2. Add a Con Bee USB dongle and use JowiHue plugin. Seems to have good success.
3. Add a Hubitat Elevation and use it only as a gateway with Michael's plug-in. That's the option I choose. Since it also support Z-Wave I removed my previous Z-Wave gateway. I also needed to have access to another type of devices that the 2nd option was not covering. Did that 1-2 months ago and so far it is very reliable.

Optional : What I did with the Sinopé is that I also purchased their gateway and left it in its box. If I ever sell our place, I'll put it in service and that will become a user friendly, self-working system with schedule, phone apps, Web page etc...

Good luck.

Michel.

[ewkearns]

Potential note on safety: According to the National Electric Code, heating circuits are considered a continuous load and therefore must be derated by 25%. (For example: a 20 Amp heating circuit cannot have more than 16 Amps of load connected.)

[andredemontreal]

Michel

Yeah, I often forget that one day, someone else will need to use and troubleshoot my stuff...

"The down side was that they do not have an autonomous schedule feature. So again, in the eventuality of selling, they become dumb thermostats for the buyer."
I guess that if the next user dislike complex automation, like most people, a dumb thermostat is best.
I really like a minimalist user interface. The STZW402+ is perfect to me, simple but controllable.

I doubt that a thermostat need to cut both L1 and L2 to controls heat.
For sure, a thermostat with GFCI must have four wires to be able to isolate both lines when a ground fault is detected.
I am pretty sure the internal heat relay or triac only handles one line.
Then, adding the GFCI function upstream (two pole breaker or dummy GFCI thermostat), I could safely use the STZW402+

The Sinopé thermostat looks like a very good alternative. And, it's designed in Québec...
I didn't look for Zigbee, this widens my choices...
I am wondering if I could program the two buttons for my two presets (normal - shower).
The documentation on their site does not speak about Zigbee commands.


Thanks for the ideas

André

[Michel]

Hi André,

Dumb (no Z-Wave etc...) vs Very dumb (no schedule) : Agreed that for non HA passionate peoples it needs to be simple but I think that at least having some scheduling is a must but it is certainly not a show stopper when it comes time to sell.

L1 + L2 : Again, I could be mistaken with that. When I first got a few of the Stelpro I was thinking of replacing some of the in-floor heating breakers by GFCI one and then add the Stelpro but I just could not find anything confirming that it was OK or not. In the end it was also getting more expensive then going with Sinopé.

Sinopé : From what I heard, they were the one behind Aube before it gets bought by Honeywell. From there they came-up with Sinopé. Their new display version is very nice.

The Zigbee information consist of (may differ depending on the gateway and plug-in used):

• Actual temperature
• Setpoint
• Heat status (Heating/Standby)
  Note 1: Different from Stelpro "pulsing" active status thus less traffic. I personnaly liked better the previous version wher they were giving a percentage.
• Possibility to set the clock
  Note 2 : When part of your own Zigbee network, you loose the ability to display the outside temperature, like the Sinopé gateway normally do.

Regarding your proposed logic, it could be done by paying some attention to your event structure.

1. If setpoint moved-up? (i.e. user pressed the UP button)
2. Then change setpoint to 34C
3. If setpoint moves down (i.e. user pressed the DOWN button)
4. Then change setpoint to 24C

Of course you would need to add more to it as step 2 and 4 are also setpoints changes and you don't want your event to trigger twice.

Regards.

[Guest]

The Zigbee information consist of (may differ depending on the gateway and plug-in used):

• Actual temperature
• Setpoint
• Heat status (Heating/Standby)
  Note 1: Different from Stelpro "pulsing" active status thus less traffic. I personnaly liked better the previous version wher they were giving a percentage.
• Possibility to set the clock
  Note 2 : When part of your own Zigbee network, you loose the ability to display the outside temperature, like the Sinopé gateway normally do.

Thanks for the details; are these features "status only" or can you actually control/change values via Zigbee?
Also I don't see schedule management, is it part of the zigbee control as well ?

I am also on the market to replace my 11 OJ microline thermostats for new units that can be controlled directly (not cloud based);
Heated floors is my main/only source of heating here; will only change if I have full/direct control.

[Michel]

Setpoint is Read/Write

If included in your Zigbee network then the scheduling has to be done by HS4.

If you use Sinopé's GT130 Gateway then each T-Stat are Zigbee tied to that GT-130. From there, there is scheduling and other setting like Geofencing and Utility high rate adaptation. But then you cannot have the same T-Sat on (2) different Zibbee network and the GT-130 cannot be tied to an other Zigbee network.

With the previous generation (GT-125) Sinopé was using their own protocol called Mi-Wi if I remember correctly. Spud has a plug-in that ties to the API. That API is suppose to be upgraded eventually by Sinopé to include their new generation but so far nothing. If that was the case, you could have T-Stat reporting to GT-130 and GT-130 supplying info to HS thru the API.

[Michel]

André,

You might find additional info about the Sinopé floor heating combined with Zigbee in this thread.

I Also just received a 15% coupon for Earth day if you're in the shopping process. Coupon "PLANET2021" expiring April 24th 2021 03:00 EDT