X-10 240 volt filter

[langenet]

So I've been running X-10 to control both my pool pump and pool heater in/next to my pool shed some 65 feet from the house since 2011 without issue. This year I upgraded my pool pump to a Pentair variable speed Super Flow pump. I just discovered when it is on, that I cannot control (turn on) my pool heater unless I turn it on first. The pool heater is controlled by a XPS3 X-10 switch. Interestingly enough, I can shut off the pool pump if it is running. The pool pump/salt system is controlled via a RR501 with an Elk panel relay. And since it has a button on it, I can control the pump locally should I need to backwash. I believe the pump is creating too much noise on the line which is causing the issue. So the question is, does anyone know of a 240 volt filter which will filter both legs of the power?
Incidentally, I am working on a project that will use Arduino to control the pump via low voltage relays to the external relay port of the pump. But the issue will still remain...

My only other thought is to go to Z-wave - though with the distance and my z-net in the basement, I wonder if it will make the distance. Added to that, the RF from the pump might kill Z-wave as well...

Any recommendations?

Robert

[Switchdoctor]

EMI

X10 is flawed for use with variable speed controllers that create harmonic noise. However instead of just suggesting you upgrade to Zwave, or something that is immune to this, I will assume that you would if you could.
But to understand the issue you need to research what harmonic distortion is, I will try to explain:
When a load is switched on and off really fast it creates a "ringing" on the line that powered it, this "ringing" can be "felt" by other devices on the same circuit.
This "ringing" occurs (for example) 150times a second [in reality it changes based on load and motor speed]. The base frequency is 60times a second, so there will be a odd harmonic, like mixing two sounds to make a tone, with unpleasant results. Sending a wave (called a STANDING WAVE) backwards and will also decrease your power factor and use more electricity if it is not the only harmonic present.
Anyway- to STOP or MINIMIZE this you need to measure it , but not with a standard meter [would need a harmonic power analyzer - They are rather expensive, I know-- I have one]
By measuring it you can calculate the exact value of inductor needed, but in your case I am going to suggest stopping by your local electrical supply (the counter where the electricians go to pick up stuff for jobs) such as elliot electric supply, or dealers electric supply. And ask for a "HARMONIC CHOKE", if possible, bring the specifications for the variable pump motor or heather controller (the one that you assumed caused the issue) with you, and the electricians at the counter will be happy to advise you for a few bucks cash about how to install it. (or do it moonlighting if you are not able/willing) - [ same concept works to find a cheap after hours plumber! ]
My guess: (assuming 220v)
you would need a 10 to 16uH dual filter (or 2 singles)

When you install it, make sure your x10 device is wired "before" it, and the pump controller is wired "after" it.

Also google "harmonic power filter" or "how to reduce harmonic using choke" or such.
(a "harmonic filter" is just a simple 'choke' coil.)

I have installed these:
http://www.invertekdrives.com/variab....aspx?typeID=8
(as seen are for 3 phase industrial equipment) with results so positive that one factory that I service had the electric bill DECREASED almost $40,000 per month! (that is no typo).
They did not use x10 of course, but I used to use x10 long ago- and had similar issues with lighting ballasts in a business I owned causing no response.

FYI: (although the harmonic filter is the right solution) If you have an extra pair of wires running to your pool pump area, you can install a remote relay, and "fire" the relay using x10 from near the house. Use the extra pair of wires to trigger the coil, and supply voltage down the pair from an x10 device.


Good luck.

[langenet]

Thank you so much for your explanation with this.

Just to be clear, I am firing a remote relay - this is in my Elk Elk-9200 HD Automation panel . It plugs into my RR501 which I then control with X-10.

I'll look into the choke and take your recommendation. The power savings wasn't a consideration, though would be a bonus of course.. The pump already saves be big time in energy costs...

Robert

[Switchdoctor]

check into the choke first. But if the remote relay can be reconfigured to feed from a place where x10 is reliable, that would be a bonus.

[Uncle Michael]

This year I upgraded my pool pump to a Pentair variable speed Super Flow pump. I just discovered when it is on, that I cannot control (turn on) my pool heater unless I turn it on first. The pool heater is controlled by a XPS3 X-10 switch. . . .Any recommendations?

A PZZ01?
https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...=olp_from_sims

See reviews in this link. May be a similar application.
http://www.smarthome.com/x10-pzz01-p...g-coupler.html

[langenet]

check into the choke first. But if the remote relay can be reconfigured to feed from a place where x10 is reliable, that would be a bonus.

The RR501 is reliable and able to control the elk panel. The issue is the XPS3 X-10 switch used to turn on the pool heater. I also have one I use to turn on an outside light to the pool shed/house. These are what don't work when the pool pump is on. I tried today to stop the pump (idle it - electronics to the pump controller still on) and I can control the light/heater - though, it doesn't heat since there's no flow, but the light to the XPS3 turns on.

@Uncle Michael - thanks for this as well. Though, with running 240 volt systems here, there is no neutral wire used. It's basically one leg 120 - ground - and then the other leg @120.

I'll try the chokes first and then explore my options.

Thanks again guys for your recommendations. Really appreciate it!

Robert

[langenet]

A PZZ01?
https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...=olp_from_sims

See reviews in this link. May be a similar application.
http://www.smarthome.com/x10-pzz01-p...g-coupler.html

More on this...

Does anyone know if the PZZ01 can be wired such that the neutral is actually ground. Since my pump is 220v, it is wired 120v-gnd-120v. Can I put this filter in ahead of the pump?

My new pump is causing me all sorts of grief in that it not only affects my X-10but also my PoE which causes problems with my IP2SL communicating to my Rain8Nets. I contacted a few electrical stores asking for some chokes and they had no idea what I was looking for.

Robert

[Uncle Michael]

Does anyone know if the PZZ01 can be wired such that the neutral is actually ground. Since my pump is 220v, it is wired 120v-gnd-120v. Can I put this filter in ahead of the pump?

I'm no expert, but that doesn't sound right to me. I would have expected it to be wired 120-neutral-120. Have you had an electrician look at it?

[langenet]

You never hardwire a 220/240 volt device as 120-neutral-120. It's always ground.
Only plugin devices such as dryers require a neutral BTW. I believe this is a code thing. Hard wired 220/240 devices do not use this. This is due to the centre-tapped transformer power coming in from the service. Where 120v phase is measured against the centre-tap. Again, in NA, I believe this is by code.

I contacted the pool place where I got the pump and he'll contact Pentair... Great pump, but it breaks everything with it's EMI. Perhaps I need to find a good electrician/shop for the filter.

Thanks,

Robert

[randy]

More on this...

Does anyone know if the PZZ01 can be wired such that the neutral is actually ground. Since my pump is 220v, it is wired 120v-gnd-120v. Can I put this filter in ahead of the pump?

My new pump is causing me all sorts of grief in that it not only affects my X-10but also my PoE which causes problems with my IP2SL communicating to my Rain8Nets. I contacted a few electrical stores asking for some chokes and they had no idea what I was looking for.

Robert

Since ground and neutral are at the same electrical potential, using the ground instead of neutral would work. It would violate code. The risks are minimal, but if the ground became disconnected at the source, there could be a shock hazard as the filter could pass enough energy to electrify the pump housing and any metal attached to it.

If the pump is the only thing connected to this 240v circuit, I wonder if the filter would work at the breaker panel where you would have a real neutral. It should work as the filter would still snub the noise preventing it from getting back into the household wiring.

If that doesn't work and while it wouldn't be a permanent solution, you could temporarily try the filter at the pump using the ground. If it works, the only proper solution would be to get a neutral out to the pump.

[langenet]

Thanks Randy. I actually have a pony panel in my pool house. It is split phase as well. The salt system is also wired to the same Elk relay which is controlled by the RR501. Saying that, I have lights and my Rain8 Sprinkler controllers, switch, camera. So I want all the power clean at the pony panel so the other stuff can work fine. Like I mentioned, I run 3x X-10 devices there. One for the pool heater, one for an outside light and the other for the pump/chlorinator. I thought about going Z-wave, but this has worked reliably for 6 years now and as the house is some 60 ft away from the edge of my house, I wondered about Z-wave. I'm also sure there is ambient RF from the pool pump, chlorinator and florescent lighting as well.
My mcsSprinkler controls a IP2SL Itach device by way of PoE to a switch in the pool house. The reliability of this is being compromised as result of this noise.

I know that the ground and neutral are tied together at the panel. Neutral ordinarily carries the current back to the panel from the hot. Since it's 240 split, there is no current on the ground as it is referenced to zero. That is why I asked the question about the filter. Perhaps it may not even work... I donno.

BTW there's actually no neutral connection at the pump for 220/240 operation.

Robert

[randy]

Thanks Randy. I actually have a pony panel in my pool house. It is split phase as well. The salt system is also wired to the same Elk relay which is controlled by the RR501. Saying that, I have lights and my Rain8 Sprinkler controllers, switch, camera. So I want all the power clean at the pony panel so the other stuff can work fine. Like I mentioned, I run 3x X-10 devices there. One for the pool heater, one for an outside light and the other for the pump/chlorinator. I thought about going Z-wave, but this has worked reliably for 6 years now and as the house is some 60 ft away from the edge of my house, I wondered about Z-wave. I'm also sure there is ambient RF from the pool pump, chlorinator and florescent lighting as well.
My mcsSprinkler controls a IP2SL Itach device by way of PoE to a switch in the pool house. The reliability of this is being compromised as result of this noise.

I know that the ground and neutral are tied together at the panel. Neutral ordinarily carries the current back to the panel from the hot. Since it's 240 split, there is no current on the ground as it is referenced to zero. That is why I asked the question about the filter. Perhaps it may not even work... I donno.

BTW there's actually no neutral connection at the pump for 220/240 operation.

Robert

I understand about the lack of neutral at the pump itself, but I was just stating that the filter could be wired to ground as a quick test.

Since you have a sub panel there should be a ground and a neutral at that panel. Could you potentially wire the filter at the sub panel pump leads? The goal is to snub any RF noise generated by the pump.

While I understand that no current is carried by the ground in normal operation, the filter provides a potential path between L1 or L2 and ground, in fact it's job is to snub RF noise by dissipating that energy to neutral.

The unfortunate likelihood is that this filter will not help you with your POE/IP2SL issues. It makes me wonder if the pump motor is defective or in violation of EMI standards. IIRC X-10 runs at 120khz, but noise generated by the speed control circuitry of the pump could have harmonics that affect a broad spectrum of frequencies. I am sure Canadian standards are similar to ours with regard to EMI and RFI generated by electrical devices.

[Uncle Michael]

You never hardwire a 220/240 volt device as 120-neutral-120. It's always ground.

Sorry, I wasn't clear on what you were asking. I thought you had 120V loads as well. If it's on its own dedicated circuit, then I think Randy's suggestion of wiring the filter in at the panel makes the most sense. You might even get noise filtering for the other circuits in the panel at the same time.

[RAM]

Two years back I used some X10 XPF filters to get rid of noise from newly installed solar collectors that was feeding into the house and creating havoc.
If the pump is on it's own 240v circuit you could wire these in (one on each power leg) at the panel on the circuit that feeds the pump.
These can be had on ebay for about $30 each.

[Pete]

The pool pump/salt system is controlled via a RR501 with an Elk panel relay. And since it has a button on it, I can control the pump locally should I need to backwash.

Is the RR501 in the pool house by the poney panel?

Have you tested using an old X10 button controller in or near the pool house?

You could maybe add a local X10 controller connected via wireless or a wired network.

The signal strength locally might overcome the noise?

I am guessing the poney box you are referring to is a sub panel in the pool house?

You could maybe install Jeff Volps dual phased TW-523 in the sub panel?

If this works you can wire up an RPi2 wired or wirelessy for a CM11A or an ocelot for a TW-523. Does the Elk panel talk CM11A or TW-523?