Smart Switches: GFCI vs. Arc Breakers?

[drhtmal]

That is quite a rats nest.

I can't tell where any of those wires go from the picture. what is needed is a drawing of exactly how all wires are hooked up.

[George]

That's because the one on the right is not a switch controlling a load. It is a 2 or 3 way auxiliary switch with the traveler wire going to the actual switch that controls the load. The reading you are getting on the red is from the actual switch controlling the load. What do you want to put in there?

If a smart switch, you have to find the real switch that is controlling the load, put your smart switch there and then if you still want a 2-3 way circuit get an auxiliary switch compatible with the smart switch to replace the one on the right.

Picture makes perfect sense now.

[jgreenberg01]

That's because the one on the right is not a switch controlling a load. It is a 2 or 3 way auxiliary switch with the traveler wire going to the actual switch that controls the load. The reading you are getting on the red is from the actual switch controlling the load. What do you want to put in there?

If a smart switch, you have to find the real switch that is controlling the load, put your smart switch there and then if you still want a 2-3 way circuit get an auxiliary switch compatible with the smart switch to replace the one on the right.

Picture makes perfect sense now.

@George Either I am completely confused, or I am going to potentially muddy up your clearness.

The way I have always determined 3-way line vs. load switches is measuring the common terminal voltage with the breaker ON and the light OFF. The one with 120v is the line - and gets the smart switch. The one with common that shows 0v is the load and gets the add-on or aux switch. This method has worked for me without a hitch until I moved into this house with this particular switch.

Here's a video from GE that is a good example of that method:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx1l...roductsCompany

Since I was getting weird voltage readings with that method, I opted to remove the switches completely. Here is what I believe to be the LINE wires in the 3 gang box, and should get the smart switch - assuming the circuit was wired correctly:



This shows the voltages at the LOAD switch:



Again for clarification, the wires with the tape is what they had going to the common terminals.

None of this makes any sense to me. I'm hoping you or someone else can interpret while I'm waiting on Holiday Builders to get their sh... er, I mean, stuff together, and send an electrician over here that has a clue.

[George]

What gets me is the 46.7VAC (it is AC correct) that you are measuring. The .6 is well withing the ranging error of any consumer DVOM. But 45 or 46VAC makes no sense, I agree.

To what reference are you measuring each black and red wire? You sure there is nothing tucked away inside your breaker panel or near it. BTW, "Warning, Will Robinson!!", open your breaker panel at your peril!

Do you have an AC Breaker toner? You plug one end into an outlet and the other is a small unit that you pass over your breakers to find the right one. It beeps when you go over the breaker. I also use it, again, warning Will Robinson, with alligator clips on hot wires in a wall to find just where they terminate.

Here is an example.

This is very close to the one I have. But there are also very fancy once with digital displays and will even test for floating neutrals, etc.

https://www.amazon.com/Amprobe-BT-12.../dp/B005G7SC0M

or if you are not a die hard old fart like I am, which from what I see you taking apart your wall outlets, here is one that incorporates the Rube Goldberg setup I have

https://www.amazon.com/Amprobe-BT-12.../dp/B083BMKBCM

Here is the generic search on Amazon for a ton of them that you can can go crazy over.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=ac+breaker+tone

But whatever you have, just to keep yourself being fried, please get one of these!

This is the one I have and I never go near anything, even if I've just wired it myself without it just to make sure what is what. And that if a switch is thrown power is getting out the other side. It's light and you just keep it in our pocket. Best $15 you'll ever spend! You don't even have to touch any wires and it will even beep if you pass it over a plastic plated switch or outlet that has power going to it!

https://www.amazon.com/Non-Contact-A...dp/B07N3R74QQ/

But those voltages now have me curious . Unless the builder put in some other controllable switches, I can not recall any case of having 46VAC on any line in a US home!

See if you can find the breaker, isolate all the wires so that only one (1) is hot and find out where it goes. Then just use a normal wire tracer toner to find the routes of the other ones.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=wire+trac...=2RKEOZM146S9W

Again, a million of them out there and you may already have some of these. But these are the minimum that I will always have with me. I had one circuit where the dumb *** electrician stole a hot from a junction box on the other side of the wall. Drove me and my electrician nuts until we shut down all the breakers and traced it down to where he connected to hots to the same terminal of a switch. Lazy!!!

We'll get it figured out.

[Guest]

It is important not to "guess" what each wire is doing, nor is it prudent to assume that the conventional wire color scheme was actually being followed. You cannot determine what the wires are doing from a simple picture! One needs to find someone who has the proper electrical diagnostic equipment, and knows how to use them.

Do not make assumptions!

[George]

It is important not to "guess" what each wire is doing, nor is it prudent to assume that the conventional wire color scheme was actually being followed. You cannot determine what the wires are doing from a simple picture! One needs to find someone who has the proper electrical diagnostic equipment, and knows how to use them.

Do not make assumptions!

Agreed, get the right equipment and if you have an electrician friend try to diagnose just exactly what's happening.

[jgreenberg01]

Also agree. While I have no problem with hanging fans, installing single pole or even 3-way switches, but...

When I run into, and this is the 1st time, a circuit that doesn't make sense... Danger Will Robinson is right.

As I said earlier, this is new construction and is under warranty. Problem is that the electricians they sent don't have a clue. And I thought that old-school gents from the Bronx would know their stuff.

I've escalated it, and now I'm waiting on them.

If it takes to much longer, I'm going to find my own smart technology-enabled electrician, then fight with the builder to pay for it.

Just wanted to run it by people here. I'm sure most of us have installed our fair share of 3-ways, and was hoping someone had experienced this and might know of a resolution.

Now I'll hop back onto the Jupiter 2 - you know, the ship with kitchen lights that can't currently be controlled by a smart switch - and toss Dr. Smith (dopey electrician) out the airlock...

[Pete]

The simplest switch box has two wires typically. One hot and one to the load. Typically too colors are black for hot and white for neutral. 3 way switch boxes have a traveler wire between switch boxes. For most automated switches it is optimal to provide power to the switch plus the switch leads and then a traveler between switches.

I have seen confusion relating to basic 3 way switches. Lots of times this is related to what color of the wire is used for the traveler. Any AC voltage that is less than 120VAC could be that there is some AC voltage connected to what is normally a neutral wire. Much of the time if it works post construction then the switch box is never opened.

Way long time ago would volunteer for Habitat for Humanity and saw this sort of confusion with newbie electricians totally mis wiring a home and then seeing a master electrician reviewing wiring and redoing it all.

Note too that smart switches are made to connect to conventionally wired boxes plus a neutral wire.


Take a room or hallway or any place with 3 way switch boxes and remove the switches and go baby steps checking each wire at a time.



Best way to check the wires in a box and traveler wires is to power off the breaker first. Think conventional switches and conventional wiring while doing this.

Then take a VOM (Voltage meter) and check each wire in a switch box or boxes one by one. Label them.

The colors of the wires should be standard BUT sometimes with non professionals they make their own rules up for the colors of the wires which can be bad. Most basic 120VAC wiring is white for neutral and black for hot. Here for those extra wires (like lamps and 3 way circuits electrician went to using yellow or blue wires).

You can hire an electrician to check the wires and label them for you. Or tell the contractor to tell the electrician to revisit and label his wires for fear someone is going to get electrocuted.

Adding a smart switch after wards with labels is a non issue if the box is wired to basic electrical standards.

[George]

Yes, and the really old school wiring was instead of running neutral and hot to the switch, they just ran a hot 'switch loop' to the light with the neutral being the ceiling! Grrrr

[Alex_W]

Code requires all new construction to have a neutral in each switch box, so there should be no circuits where the line voltage enters at the load and a 2-conductor plus ground drops to the switch. If there is a box housing switches that use two different circuits then that is most likely the source of your problem. I suspect that the neutrals from the two circuits are connected together in that box and they should be separated. In other words, if there are two "hot" wires from different circuits in the same box, the neutrals from those two circuits should not be connected to each other. If there are two circuits in the box and you see one big wire nut with all of the white wires in it then it is wired incorrectly.

[George]

Code requires all new construction to have a neutral in each switch box, so there should be no circuits where the line voltage enters at the load and a 2-conductor plus ground drops to the switch. If there is a box housing switches that use two different circuits then that is most likely the source of your problem. I suspect that the neutrals from the two circuits are connected together in that box and they should be separated. In other words, if there are two "hot" wires from different circuits in the same box, the neutrals from those two circuits should not be connected to each other. If there are two circuits in the box and you see one big wire nut with all of the white wires in it then it is wired incorrectly.

Not quite, if the two circuit terminate in the same panel and those neutrals are all tied to the same neutral bar in the panel, it's perfectly acceptable and to code to just wire nut them all together

[TC1]

While everyone is trying to be helpful, at the end of the day there's a liability and safety issue here. If a homeowner attempts to straighten this out and for some reason down the road there's an incident, and the fire marshal or insurance inspector traces it back to box, the homeowner is screwed. The home is under warranty, let the contractor and a licensed electrician deal with it and the liability burden shifts to them.

And this is coming from someone that is an electrical engineer by education. Without being there in person to inspect and trace the work there's no way in hell I'd feel comfortable giving someone remote troubleshooting advice, it's not like helping someone fix their computer where the consequences of getting it wrong aren't life-threatening.

[Pete]

Hear! hear!

It is a life and saftey issue that should be corrected by the contractor.

[Guest]

I have seen confusion relating to basic 3 way switches. Lots of times this is related to what color of the wire is used for the traveler.

Just a nit pick, but in a basic (manual) three way switch circuit, there are two travelers, not one. The common color scheme is that one of those travelers is black, the other red.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiway_switching

When I replace a three way circuit with a smart switch, I usually will use the black traveler to carry either line or load (depending on where the control switch is located), and the red traveler as the "signal" wire to the companion(s).

[jgreenberg01]

I appreciate all the help from everyone here, and no, I have no plans on opening the panel or doing anything other than simple switch installs.

At this point the installing electrician is refusing any more warranty calls, so I will pay another electrician to sort this out.

I'll post the results of what they find for everyone's information after I can get someone to look at it. It may take a while as the electricians are all busy building homes that the pandemic has driven everyone and his brother to buy. I know this because I sell custom homes.

In the meantime, I will have to turn on my main living area lights by getting up and flipping a switch... a lot like a neanderthal would have to do