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    If you put in new ceiling lights right now...

    Doing some remodel work - kitchen and two bathrooms - and wondering if I should keep with the 110V can lights running LED bulbs and HS-WD200+ switches or if there's some better way to do lights now.

    Wondering if something like using the switch to control a direct DC dimmer (Aeotec?) might be better? I like the Innovelli switches I put in and wouldn't mind using those in some DC load model if that's an option.

    I'm not interested in color-changing bulbs and stuff like that... just nice whole-room lighting.

    #2
    We did a substantial remodel just a few years ago and I was looking for DC recessed lights. Good luck finding any. Even if you do, the choices will be very limited. I am not sure why that is but my guess is that it would just require too thick wires. So stick with your 110V wiring and dimmer switches.

    Make sure that the lights dim well. Some of them cannot be dimmed very low. For a kitchen that's not going to be a problem but for bedrooms it might be.

    If you have the opportunity, put wires everywhere where you think you might need it. Windows for powering automated shades (make sure they don't get into the way for mounting the shades), sensors in all doors, wires for outdoor sensors if possible (I missed that one and really regret it), wires for security cameras if the remodel allows it, lightning for your cabinets if you have glass door cabinets, wires where you might want to mount a tablet, etc. I just had to exchange batteries today for the shade by the kitchen sink which is the only motorized shade where I didn't put wires. It's not terrible but I surely would try to avoid it if I can by having power hardwired.

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      #3
      Just been through this and California adds an extra hurdle if you are doing it with permits. CA adds Title 24 and lighting has to be "approved" if its the main lights installed during construction. I ended up with 110V canless LED lights with varying temperature based on room location, very bright and generally dim OK. I tested a bunch with the HS WD-200+ and with different manufacturing dates I have some that flicker a little at low dim. I'm at over 100 lights. I did led strips (24 DC) for under cabinet and up lighting in the kitchen, along with recessed in another room. I am awaiting final and hope the inspector does look too closely as obtaining Title 24 led strips is not easy, especially at the moment with supply lines sub optimal. Going the DC route requires finding location to locate drivers that are serviceable and meet code. I looked at some zwave 01-10V dimmers for a more commercial like control system. Finding matching lights that were on the approved CA list, more importantly the approved wife list and worked became a struggle. Most importantly the house must run like a normal house if the HA system is down. i.e. I only loose the automation functions. 3 and 4 way lights work, Fans etc.

      BTW the Panasonic fans (WhisperGreen) are great and have a 10W dimmable LED light which I used in bathrooms along with canless LED, and you can modify the grill to install an Aeotec Multisensor to fit almost like a factory unit. That is powered via a PoE to USB adaptor in the ceiling with Cat 6 cable run from an Ethernet switch to each fan location. Solved how do hide a temp/humidity/PIR in each bathroom.

      As mulu, mentions, flood the place with wires, I ran 4,000' of CAT6A, (2 runs to each point, a bunch for outside security cameras, garage (PV array controller) and from the Demarc's for cable etc. a bunch of 12 awg cable, some other class 2 for heating controls and I still missed places. Getting power to the windows was a challenge that I gave up on, as much as I wanted too, it just got too much in the way of the other contractors.

      Good luck and do let us know what you decide and how it works out.

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        #4
        Now that I read Horse post, I am actually using LED strip lights in some of my closets wired with 12 AWG cables. In my opinion the strip lights look nicer than the overhead lights because they illuminate the whole closet pretty evenly. Most people are also impressed that when you open the coat closet, other closets, pantry, etc the lights automatically come on. For the undercabinet lights we just used regular bar LED lights. The milky cover diffuses the light and you can't really see the light fixture because there is an edge in the front. I also agree with Horse regarding the Panasonic fans. They are pretty quite and still rather powerful, though ours don't have LED (didn't exist at that time).

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          #5
          I second Horse. I would stick with AC. There are some excellent alternatives to traditional cans with PAR reflectors.

          https://hxlightinginc.com/product-ca...ment-fixtures/

          These can be used in new construction or retrofit.

          Comment


            #6
            I put these LED recessed ceiling lights in my parent's kitchen when doing a remodel. They have worked very well. I had two left over that are now over my table saw as well. You wire them up like any other light using mains power. Worked out real nice above their sink where we would never have been able to fit can lights. I have seen no issue with them on a standard Dimmer switch (no home automation at their place).
            Karl S
            HS4Pro on Windows 10
            242 Devices
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              #7
              Also think about the time you may think to resell the house as many (most) people shy away from automated homes because of the complexity and steep learning curve. And if they are older they just want regular switches. When I sold my old home, I had to remove all the automation and replace the switches with regular 120V ones as almost all people said that they wouldn't know what to do.

              While this is a productive and rewarding hobby for us, the majority of the population just are not up to it and won't put up with dedicated machines running things. They understand alarm systems but only as alarm systems, automation built into the alarm system scares them away, hence the need for installers and their monthly fees to manage and maintain (change) things as the owner wishes.

              Comment


                #8
                George You nailed my biggest concerns. Hopefully if I ever do sell, the HS dimmers and switches can stay as I had them installed in a way they would work without HS running. Just none of the clever stuff works. My fans would have to be rewired to remove my custom control for humidity, but thats a quick change in the fan with a different plugin module.
                The rest of it will likely have to be removed or seriously dumbed down. I doubt the new owner would want to pay my monthly support rates :-)

                I used quite a few (couple of hundred units) from Home Depot https://www.homedepot.com/p/Commerci...1275/306079867 and only had one fail. They fit is the tightest of places (to ksum's point of size, I have vaulted ceiling full of spray foam and normal canned lights had no chance), indoors, outdoors, showers and most are color temperature selectable which was really nice for bedrooms (warm), laundry (daylight) and general living areas (bright white). They are not perfect, so buy a few of each and test. I have a few flicker at dim setting. I actually suspect the dimmer as other rooms are OK, and the rooms that do flicker, all fixtures flicker. Only I notice, so at the moment it is what it is!

                Comment


                  #9
                  Here installed one in one shower stall 4 years ago. (120VAC ==> 12VDC ==> LED lamp). It is working fine today. These were being sold in Canada big box stores with with a metal box that housed the 120VAC to 12VDC transformer 4 years ago. At the time you could purchase these on Ebay from China for around $5 each with no metal box.

                  Might change the laundry room lighting to using these. Wife is not happy with the color of the LED tubes I installed there a few years back.
                  - Pete

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                    #10
                    Y'all are the best! I knew there'd be some experience in here.

                    Horse , I don't expect the inspectors to be involved. It's always a possibility... but I'm hoping they're not involved. ๐Ÿคž

                    The "non-HA" thing is a good reminder. I've stuck to that consistently for a couple decades now; but this DC/AC thing risks challenging it. That said, these three rooms are all attic-accessible; so adding or changing back to AC wouldn't be a huge issue so long as we keep using conduit for the wall switches. Great reminder that I /have/ to keep using conduit with enough room for whatever mess comes next.

                    If the dimming is tolerable on either those Amazon or Home Depot units, they both look great. If I'm seeing them right, they're both run from AC right to each "can" spot with a transformer per light. That could certainly work if they're good stuff. And those HD ones with switchable 3K/4K/5K... who knew? With 6" cans throughout the house, I'd prefer to find those in 6" size... but I could just do these rooms as 4", I guess. ๐Ÿคทโ€โ™€๏ธ

                    Bit of a bummer to hear the mixed success with dimming. I'd love to find some that really work well with AC dimming. I suppose I could probably wire these to be run with DC Z-Wave dimming and switch them back if I had to... ๐Ÿคจ

                    Nice nudge on the fan, too... we've got windows in all the toilet rooms so got rid of fans years ago, but... could be good to have. ๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿผ
                    Also like the idea of using PoE to USB to power sensors. I've considered powering them all (still using batteries now); but didn't want to manage all the USB power bricks throughout the attic. PoE/USB is an expensive way to do it; but we wouldn't be doing this hobby if we were shy to spend money. ๐Ÿ˜

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by George View Post
                      Also think about the time you may think to resell the house as many (most) people shy away from automated homes because of the complexity and steep learning curve. And if they are older they just want regular switches. When I sold my old home, I had to remove all the automation and replace the switches with regular 120V ones as almost all people said that they wouldn't know what to do.

                      While this is a productive and rewarding hobby for us, the majority of the population just are not up to it and won't put up with dedicated machines running things. They understand alarm systems but only as alarm systems, automation built into the alarm system scares them away, hence the need for installers and their monthly fees to manage and maintain (change) things as the owner wishes.
                      Things shouldn't become unusable if home automation fails. Our lights, shades, awnings, Chromecasts, TVs, etc. all still work even without HS. You just have to go back to do things the manual way. Of course it's wasted many if a new owner doesn't take advantage of it.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        The PoE (802.3af) to USB I used were $19 each, but are made by Ubiquity and are nice inline units. https://store.ui.com/collections/operator-accessories/products/instant-802-3af-to-usb-adaptor.
                        They power the Aeotec sensors I Dremel'd into the grilles that are normally reserved for Panasonic modules

                        Click image for larger version  Name:	IMG_0663.jpg Views:	1 Size:	56.7 KB ID:	1424988Click image for larger version  Name:	IMG_0664.jpg Views:	1 Size:	54.6 KB ID:	1424989

                        Agree a PoE switch is not cheap, but that's my background and with the amount of wired devices I have and not wanting to do power injectors for camera's, AP's etc. It was worth the investment in a UnFi 48 port switch clean up the stack of consumer switches I had collected over the years. That and it real easy to remotely power reset anything without climbing into crawl spaces or up ladders. Getting to old for all that!
                        Last edited by Horse; October 9, 2020, 12:20 AM. Reason: removed an additional picture

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                          #13
                          gregoryx The LED Lights I linked to on Amazon dim nicely with a normal (dumb) dimming switch. I do not think they would be an issue with a smart switch.

                          Horse what are those grates? Did you put sensors in the grate for bathroom fans?
                          Karl S
                          HS4Pro on Windows 10
                          242 Devices
                          56 Z-Wave Nodes
                          37 Events
                          HSTouch Clients: 3 Android, 1 iOS
                          Google Home: 3 Mini units 1 display

                          Comment


                            #14
                            ksum they are the grilles that are standard on Panasonic WhisperGreen fans. Left is without the LED light option and Right is with a 10W LED. They have a removable square for installing the Motion module.

                            Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2020-10-09 at 10.16.27 AM.png
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Size:	62.5 KB
ID:	1425084โ€‹I used a Dremel and removed some of the plastic tabs on the back and the Aeotec Multisensor 6 push fits in. Its the small round dome thing in each picture. Cut a round hole in the side of the metal case to run the USB wire out through a grommet to a PoE to USB adaptor, and it solved the problem of where to install sensors so they actually worked, but also looked nice (wife can't tell) and is easy to get power as batteries don't last long.

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                              #15
                              Super cool work on the Dremel, Horse . Reminds me that I might want to consider those recessed box things that Aeotec makes if I go hard-wired. And those Ubiquiti PoE-USB looks nice - though I think they're twice the price of the ones I've used for powering RPIs. I had avoided (returned, actually) the older UniFi PoE switches because they were so darn loud - even in the equipment closet... just silly. So I've got the 8-port external-power-supply PoE units scattered around the house. I just got one of the new 16-port "lite" units and its silent. I heard that the new 24- and 48-port are pretty quiet now as well. I'll find the right one and do exactly what you've got for the attic-accessible MS-6 units. ๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿผ

                              ksum , thank you. That's exactly what I need to know. I'll order some and test in other rooms well before we get to that point of the remodel. ๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿผ

                              Looks like time to send Amazon more money. ๐Ÿ˜

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