Using homeseer as an alarm system

[mminehan]

All automation systems, including HomeSeer, are toys. They are very nice and capable toys, but they are not designed to provide the level of security that dedicated security systems will provide. That isn't their function. I have integrated my security system with HomeSeer, but it still functions as a stand-alone system. The same is true of my surveillance system. It resides on its own subnet and functions independently of all other systems.
....

Have fun with your automation system, but never rely on it as a life safety/critical security device.

100% agree. Home automation should only sit over top of each subsystem and provides integration and 'intelligence'. But each subsystem (security, surveillance, lighting, heating etc) needs to be able to function on its own without the integration. You should still be able to live in your house if Homeseer is down. You should be still be able to turn on the lights, arm the alarm, adjust the heating etc without HS.

This is also why cloud based systems have their downsides. Systems that rely on a network connection, or even worse are internet dependent, have an inherent weakness. I would never use a cloud based security system or fire detection system for example. Even wireless alarm systems are questionable to some degree. Hardwired local control more often than not is the most reliable.

[kenm]

All automation systems, including HomeSeer, are toys. They are very nice and capable toys, but they are not designed to provide the level of security that dedicated security systems will provide. That isn't their function. I have integrated my security system with HomeSeer, but it still functions as a stand-alone system. The same is true of my surveillance system. It resides on its own subnet and functions independently of all other systems.

That being said, most peoples security needs are psychological rather than practical. ADT and others have made a fortune selling burglar alarms to the segment of the population least likely to be burglarized. The same holds true for firearms manufacturers, but I won't go down that rabbit hole.

Burglars and thieves are opportunists. Your best option is to make your home less attractive than your neighbors home. For most people, a dog (even a small one) is better than any alarm system. Even fake cameras are a great deterrent.

Linked smoke alarms (wired or wireless) are a good choice.

Have fun with your automation system, but never rely on it as a life safety/critical security device.

I more or less agree with you on this. For me, I consider what I do with HomeSeer when it comes to security to be more of an "Alert System" as opposed to an "alarm" or "security" system. Telling me that someone just drove up the driveway doesn't mean an alarm needs to be raised. With that being said, outside motion that turns on lights at night is part of the overall security of the property.

[Alex_W]

All automation systems, including HomeSeer, are toys. They are very nice and capable toys, but they are not designed to provide the level of security that dedicated security systems will provide. That isn't their function. I have integrated my security system with HomeSeer, but it still functions as a stand-alone system. The same is true of my surveillance system. It resides on its own subnet and functions independently of all other systems.

That being said, most peoples security needs are psychological rather than practical. ADT and others have made a fortune selling burglar alarms to the segment of the population least likely to be burglarized. The same holds true for firearms manufacturers, but I won't go down that rabbit hole.

Burglars and thieves are opportunists. Your best option is to make your home less attractive than your neighbors home. For most people, a dog (even a small one) is better than any alarm system. Even fake cameras are a great deterrent.

Linked smoke alarms (wired or wireless) are a good choice.

Have fun with your automation system, but never rely on it as a life safety/critical security device.

[kenm]

Apologies to the OP. New thread started here: https://forums.homeseer.com/forum/ho...ups-management

[mminehan]

This thread has gone a bit off topic. But it is apparent that using HS as a security system is just too fraught with problems (power, software updates, plugin issues, networking etc.). It's just a really bad idea as there are too many things that can go worng....despite anecdotes.

I have a similar arrangement using a small microcontroller and a transistor. The circuit is powered by a wall-wart plugged into a non-ups outlet. The microcontroller senses the 3.3V supply on the PC motherboard. if the circuit has power (from the wall-wart) and no voltage from the PC for more that ten minutes, it pulses the transistor that acts like pressing the power button on the PC. It will retry a few times if the PC voltage doesn't come up in a few seconds.

This is interesting. I suggest we start a new thread on power/UPS managment. I am struggling to setup and test a good method of managing a UPS, Homeseer PC, NAS, networking switches, a couple of Raspberry Pis, and a security gateway. They have to boot in the right order and be able to handle various scenarios, e.g. complete power failure, power restore during UPS shutdown etc. I have yet to find a good reliable method of managing all this with out something not booting or getting the wrong IP address (despite static IPs).

[Corvl1]

Sure:

This is the relay:
https://www.reichelt.de/multifunktio...82176.html?r=1

-Programmed when power recieved on the relays the timer starts. After 10 minutes the outputs are " shorted". These outputs I connected on the motherboard of the computer "power-pins".
-the computer is on the ups and shuts down when 10 minutes left on the UPS.
-the relay is directly connected to the mains (not via UPS).

When power is restored, the relay-timer starts automatically. But the computer does not start up yet.

When the programmed time (10 minutes) is over, the second coil of the relays connects both pins of the power-on on the motherboard. Than the computer starts.

I hope I wrote it clear enough.

Cor

[joegr]

Indeed, for that reason I have between the "power"-pins on the motherboard a time-relays this relays is connected to the mains ( not via the UPS). When power is restored, the UPS is recharging , and the timer starts running, after 10 minutes of constant main power the relays does it's thing and the computer is started.

Cor

I have a similar arrangement using a small microcontroller and a transistor. The circuit is powered by a wall-wart plugged into a non-ups outlet. The microcontroller senses the 3.3V supply on the PC motherboard. if the circuit has power (from the wall-wart) and no voltage from the PC for more that ten minutes, it pulses the transistor that acts like pressing the power button on the PC. It will retry a few times if the PC voltage doesn't come up in a few seconds.

[kenm]

Indeed, for that reason I have between the "power"-pins on the motherboard a time-relays this relays is connected to the mains ( not via the UPS). When power is restored, the UPS is recharging , and the timer starts running, after 10 minutes of constant main power the relays does it's thing and the computer is started.

Cor

Very nice. Would you mind sharing more details about the relay and associated circuit you are using?

Thanks,
Ken

[Corvl1]

The problem with the graceful shutdown is that you never remove the AC power because the shutdown happens before the battery runs out so the BIOS will not turn the computer on by itself in this case. For this reason I just let the battery run down and accept a dirty shutdown. Once power comes back the computer starts up again. I also have a KASA WIFI plug for the server so I can power cycle it remotely without ZWAVE.

Indeed, for that reason I have between the "power"-pins on the motherboard a time-relays this relays is connected to the mains ( not via the UPS). When power is restored, the UPS is recharging , and the timer starts running, after 10 minutes of constant main power the relays does it's thing and the computer is started.

Cor

[AllHailJ]

RonPiper -

I often see in the forums it’s not recommended practice to use HS as an alarm system due to it not being as reliable as a traditional alarm system. Instead it’s recommended to get a standalone system that can integrate. I agree this would be the ideal approach.

Take a look at this thread:

https://forums.homeseer.com/forum/homeseer-products-services/system-software-controllers/hs3touch/hs3touch-how-tos/1388759-keypad-for-hstouch/page3

Post 31. S Rodgers has built an ELK security panel as an hstouch keypad so it can be controlled through HS.

You can make homeseer do some alarm system features. It will not be monitored 24x7 but security is like you and your friends being chased by a bear. You don't have t be faster than the bear; Just faster than one of your friends. You can tie into a smoke detector system with a mimo lite and an interconnect if that is a requirement.

I tie my DSC system into homeseer and use the reed switches on the doors and windows. Interface to HS through BLDSC and an it100 board.

Hope this gives you some ideas to think about.

[kenm]

The problem with the graceful shutdown is that you never remove the AC power because the shutdown happens before the battery runs out so the BIOS will not turn the computer on by itself in this case. For this reason I just let the battery run down and accept a dirty shutdown. Once power comes back the computer starts up again. I also have a KASA WIFI plug for the server so I can power cycle it remotely without ZWAVE.

Good point. This is an edge timing case for me that I haven't run into. In almost all cases here, we either have a brown out or a few second outage which we just ride through, or we have a PSPS (Public Safety Power Shutoff) where the power is shut off for several hours due to high winds. In the later case, the HS system gracefully shuts down and then the battery is further drained by some network equipment that's always on. That drain results in a UPS shutdown which kills the AC.

I'll have to rethink this in regard to my new platform. I now have HS4 on a Win10 Pro laptop which probably shouldn't be on a UPS so it can detect AC OFF and ON and switch between battery and AC as needed.

As many have said, lots of thought and testing required to improve reliability.

Thanks,
Ken

[Uncle Michael]

The chance of the PC being down while somebody is trying to break in is pretty small. The important thing is that you really test your system to make sure it works as intended. You don't want to have events set up and then when somebody is actually trying to break in you realize the logic in your events was wrong...

Well said and much clearer than my post. HS not running is not the most likely problem. The problem is that testing the 'alarm' function you design requires serious thought and effort, and it is not easy to imagine and test all the possible circumstances that need to be covered.

[farfromuman]

My BIOS has three options when AC is applied: OFF, ON, or LAST STATE. When set to ON, the system will power up when the AC power cord is connected, even if a graceful shutdown was the last action performed. I could see that not all BIOS have this setting.

I've never encountered a problem with updates being downloaded over a metered connection and I've been running with this setup for almost 4 years. For Win10 Pro, I agree there are group policy settings than can be changed.

I agree with mulu that one of the biggest risks (and effort) is testing the logic and edge conditions of your system and as chrisfraser05 stated, I have much bigger issues at my house if HS is down for very long.

The problem with the graceful shutdown is that you never remove the AC power because the shutdown happens before the battery runs out so the BIOS will not turn the computer on by itself in this case. For this reason I just let the battery run down and accept a dirty shutdown. Once power comes back the computer starts up again. I also have a KASA WIFI plug for the server so I can power cycle it remotely without ZWAVE.

[kenm]

Point 2 will not work with " always turn on" when you have shutdown windows " gracefully" and power is applied.

Point 4: with metered, some updates will still be done I have read/encountered.

In win10 pro there are better options, other people wrote about it on the forum.

My BIOS has three options when AC is applied: OFF, ON, or LAST STATE. When set to ON, the system will power up when the AC power cord is connected, even if a graceful shutdown was the last action performed. I could see that not all BIOS have this setting.

I've never encountered a problem with updates being downloaded over a metered connection and I've been running with this setup for almost 4 years. For Win10 Pro, I agree there are group policy settings than can be changed.

I agree with mulu that one of the biggest risks (and effort) is testing the logic and edge conditions of your system and as chrisfraser05 stated, I have much bigger issues at my house if HS is down for very long.

[Corvl1]

Subscribed. I've been thinking about this for a while and have a few notes:

1. A UPS is a must just to avoid brown outs and also for surge suppression. Added bonus is the HS system can detect the event and alert on it.
2. UPS can trigger a graceful system shutdown. Set PC to "Always Turn On" when AC is applied to recover.
3. Set up PC to auto-login and start HS. Use something like Startup Delayer to manage startup.
4. Windows Updates must be disabled or delayed until scheduled maintenance windows. This can be done by setting the Ethernet connection to "metered" in Windows 10 and then manually downloading updates during the maintenance window.
5. Internet connection needs to be on UPS and needs to stay up during an area power outage. This is a concern whether it is wired or wireless (cell tower) internet. Satellite would be the only exception to this.
6. It would be best if the PC had no moving parts as in an SSD and also fanless.

Point 2 will not work with " always turn on" when you have shutdown windows " gracefully" and power is applied.

Point 4: with metered, some updates will still be done I have read/encountered.

In win10 pro there arebetter options, other people wrote about it on the forum.