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    Matter: Is there a HomeSeer technology roadmap or even a plan?

    "Matter" (formerly known as CIP) is the open-standard automation alliance between Google, Amazon, and Apple. There can be no doubt that Matter will become the leading automation technology in the home. This transition may happen very quickly, given the morass that is Home Automation of today.

    Is the interface with Matter already under development, or if not then is this on the HomeSeer roadmap and is there a timeline?

    One of the concerns is that Z-Wave is essentially the walking-dead as far as home protocols are concerned. The Matter consortium made very clear that Z-Wave is in no way, shape, or form compatible with, a part of, or in the future their standards. (Z-Wave is a closed standard, is very slow, and is a disorganized and highly fragmented protocol.) It does seem that it may be possible to build a Z-Wave gateway, but the usefulness is probably just to link Matter and Z-Wave for the remaining life of the installed base.

    Mostly I am concerned that HomeSeer isn't going to ride the sinking Z-Wave ship down.

    Or, am I missing something here?

    #2
    Homeseer works with many protocols, not just Z-wave. Many have no Z-wave devices, and use X-10, UPB, Zigbee, wifi, etc. Matter (ChIP) has been discussed and we'll see what happens. How many things have Google, Amazon and Apple abandoned (or locked down) over time? I'm guessing my last HA home will be primarily Z-wave.

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      #3
      A reasonable speculation, and there is life on the far-fringe.

      However, the fragmentation and frustration with the current state of things in Home Automation is felt by users and vendors alike. Z-Wave is "long-in-the-tooth" and too complicated for the mainstream user. So there is a genuine need for Matter (ChIP). It feels like it should succeed, being an open standard, supported by the big three, and that it uses WiFi which is vastly superior if only because people work to have WiFi throughout their homes.

      My view may be biased by the fact that I have learned to despise Z-Wave because it is proprietary and coverage has been dismal where I've installed it. I think it works in little close networks where the user is a geek. But my wife CAN install HomeKit devices and could never install Z-Wave. I manage a site that has six Z-Net interfaces and even still there are coverage problems galore.

      I just kinda hoped to hear: "Oh yes, HS4 has a Matter (ChIP) plug-in already under development and we will be right there this fall with the other companies. We want to keep HS4 relevant and current". (Or something like that.)

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by SeattleDavid View Post
        uses WiFi which is vastly superior if only because people work to have WiFi throughout their homes.
        Of course, Z-Wave and Zigbee (and possibly others too), are MUCH more efficient than Wi-Fi for battery powered devices. That may change in the future, but at the moment, that's how it is.


        G

        Comment


          #5
          Of course, Z-Wave and Zigbee (and possibly others too), are MUCH more efficient than Wi-Fi for battery powered devices.
          I see no relevancy to this statement.

          The Matter (ChIP) standard rejected Z-Wave because it was worse by every metric for battery operation and instead adopted the Thread NCP as the transport layer for battery-mode operation. Thread NCP is 5x faster, 2x more battery efficient, and an open standard when compared with Z-Wave, which is a closed, proprietary, unpublished, and expensive protocol. (Expensive because the proprietary chips are multiple times more costly than open standard chips.)

          Matter (ChIP) uses TCPIP for all communications, allowing it to seamlessly transport and route and which ensures truly functional SSL/security. For transport it uses WiFi for powered devices and Thread NCP (another open standard) for battery functions. Once again, Z-Wave was rejected and came up short on all technical fronts.

          I say that Z-Wave is "long-in-the-tooth" because it isn't best at anything. It's not easier, faster, cheaper, more open, more secure, or more compatible. It has no redeeming features except for being a few decades old and possessing a minority market-share that is declining.

          I don't mean to be derogatory or rude. But Z-Wave is not the horse to bet on. It will be around for years certainly. But I expect it's popularity to increasingly overlap with the Model-T enthusiast user base.

          I am hoping HomeSeer makes the leap and remains relevant.

          Comment


            #6
            I'm struggling a bit with this MATTER protocol. What new does it provide over the Zigbee stack/protocol?
            I personally don't need my devices to be on an IP network. And isn't that a even higher security risk.

            Z-wave might be slow, but its mostly used to send a couple of bytes. Theoretically, and personal experience a 868 MHz (EU) network covers more areas than a 2.4GHz network.
            Both of them are mesh so range should be ok. Also living in a dense populated area the 2.4 GHz frequency is very noisy, my wifi is already crowded.

            Don't get me wrong I would like a better and more common standard. So please enlighten me

            Just for reference Paul Hibbert has a skeptical take:
            https://youtu.be/7OXzVzHon4c?t=454

            Comment


              #7
              My understanding is that the Matter devices will cost much less because of the open protocol. WiFi is more generally available throughout a home, including its far reaches.

              I manage a site with about 300 Z-wave devices. Coverage is a constant nightmare. Z-wave devices are constantly getting isolated. Speed is a problem…turning on a scene typically is taking 20-90 seconds…Making the owner angry that it takes a minute for all of the lights to come on after pushing a button. There are so many corners that we just struggle to get signal to, even with repeaters. Replacing a single failed switch (or a tripped breaker) can cause half of a building to become isolated and dysfunctional.

              With WiFi there are tools to check connectivity, the protocols are well seasoned and secure. It most importantly, this large property has WiFi corner-to-corner so any device anywhere would just work. With Z-Wave about half of the devices are very marginal and may work some days and not other days.

              I think if you have a dozen devices that are relatively close the Z-wave deficiencies don’t matter much…except when you have to kiss away 30 minutes to flash new firmware to one.

              Homes are growing and with smart devices now in the $7 range they can be put on every switch and nearly every outlet. That just isn’t practical or possible with Z-Wave and with WiFi it’s a non-event. Z-Wave devices are consistently 2x the price of WiFi devices because the proprietary chip is expensive.

              For me, I think a few things: 1) Takes too long to get a scene set up when 20-30 devices need to be set, 2) Z-Wave has so many dark spots that we struggle to make devices work in, 3) A much larger selection of devices is available now in WiFi and with Matter this will be even a greater difference, 4) Z-Wave is not feature rich by today’s standards, 5) Z-wave doesn’t interoperate well or at all.

              I have just learned to hate Z-Wave. I spend a disproportionate amount of time just trying to keep it communicating and working compared with WiFi devices.

              Whether Z- Wave will suffer a fast or slow death isn’t really my issue.

              It is whether HomeSeer will be swift at implementing Matter or a laggard.

              Comment


                #8
                This is the first I have heard of matter and my gut reaction is I want nothing to do with Google, Amazon or apple having any input in controlling my home. All this is, is the next step for them to continue controlling people's lives and forcing their crap down peoples throats. Someone get my tin hat

                Comment


                  #9
                  Ok, I have a much simpler smart home with only around 15 Z-wave devices and (hence) a different experience.
                  But my z-wave stick has better reach than my Unifi nanoHD and with neighbors in all directions I struggle a bit with stable wifi.
                  I'm also a bit skeptical adding tens of random devices to my home network. I have separate vlan, but still.

                  Z-wave do also develop, now with the 700 series, which apparently helps on battery usage. But you could be right that its is mater of slow or fast death.

                  Regardless; a system like HomeSeer have to implement it.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by SeattleDavid View Post
                    "Matter" (formerly known as CIP) is the open-standard automation alliance between Google, Amazon, and Apple. There can be no doubt that Matter will become the leading automation technology in the home. This transition may happen very quickly, given the morass that is Home Automation of today.

                    Is the interface with Matter already under development, or if not then is this on the HomeSeer roadmap and is there a timeline?

                    One of the concerns is that Z-Wave is essentially the walking-dead as far as home protocols are concerned. The Matter consortium made very clear that Z-Wave is in no way, shape, or form compatible with, a part of, or in the future their standards. (Z-Wave is a closed standard, is very slow, and is a disorganized and highly fragmented protocol.) It does seem that it may be possible to build a Z-Wave gateway, but the usefulness is probably just to link Matter and Z-Wave for the remaining life of the installed base.

                    Mostly I am concerned that HomeSeer isn't going to ride the sinking Z-Wave ship down.

                    Or, am I missing something here?
                    Seems that Silicon Labs is onboard with MATTER.

                    https://news.silabs.com/2021-05-11-N...ity-Experience

                    As to it being a closed standard

                    https://z-wavealliance.org/z-wave-sp...press-release/

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by SeattleDavid View Post
                      "Matter" (formerly known as CIP) is the open-standard automation alliance between Google, Amazon, and Apple. There can be no doubt that Matter will become the leading automation technology in the home. This transition may happen very quickly, given the morass that is Home Automation of today.
                      Is the interface with Matter already under development, or if not then is this on the HomeSeer roadmap and is there a timeline?
                      Or, am I missing something here?
                      HST is a private company, under the control of one person. It is difficult to discern future direction, even for current users.

                      There have been many attempts to consolidate "home automation" but none have had much success. In my view, that has been because of the complexity of the problem, caused largely by the broad array of technologies required to address it. Obviously, anything that helps to consolidate the technology base will help, but to focus on Z-wave as emblematic of the present is not likely to be helpful. I have a very satisfyingly automated home - using HomeSeer - and absolutely no z-wave devices at all.

                      Time and experience will be the judge of each new attempt to corral the far-flung tasks that make up home automation, but if someone does actually succeed to find a "universal" solution, then it may also mean that a coordinating function such as the one HomeSeer offers will no longer be necessary.

                      The more pressing problem for HST, in my estimation, is short attention spans and the 'need' for instant gratification. Finding people with the patience to construct their own home automation solution rather than buying one and expecting it to work 'out of the box' is apparently becoming increasingly difficult. If "Matter" provides the prepackaged gratification of full automation with minimal effort and understanding of underlying technology, then there might not be much need to add a hook into HS. On the other hand, if it follows the trend of providing improved performance in some domains, while completely ignoring others, then I would guess a HS plug-in could be quickly introduced.
                      Mike____________________________________________________________ __________________
                      HS3 Pro Edition 3.0.0.548, NUC i3

                      HW: Stargate | NX8e | CAV6.6 | Squeezebox | PCS | WGL 800RF | RFXCOM | Vantage Pro | Green-Eye | Edgeport/8 | Way2Call | Ecobee3 | EtherRain | Ubiquiti

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Dweber85rc View Post
                        I want nothing to do with Google, Amazon or apple having control
                        Fixed it for you Actually I’m kinda ok with Apple, but not for home control.

                        The way HomeSeer is built, handling a new protocol can be done with a plug-in. I’ve seen so many “game changers” come and go and quite a few leaving their adopters stranded. My system is very reliable and has been so for more than 4 years. It is a combination of Zigbee Z-Wave (mostly) and WiFi. Should a new protocol come along that is a compelling improvement I’ll probably phase it in, but I’m in no hurry. My long in the tooth, walking dead Z-Wave network is neither slow nor unreliable. I will confess that some of the Z-Wave products have been frustrating, but what I have in place are working fine.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          The truest paragraph in this thread. From Uncle Michael:

                          Originally posted by Uncle Michael View Post
                          ......The more pressing problem for HST, in my estimation, is short attention spans and the 'need' for instant gratification. Finding people with the patience to construct their own home automation solution rather than buying one and expecting it to work 'out of the box' is apparently becoming increasingly difficult. If "Matter" provides the prepackaged gratification of full automation with minimal effort and understanding of underlying technology, then there might not be much need to add a hook into HS. On the other hand, if it follows the trend of providing improved performance in some domains, while completely ignoring others, then I would guess a HS plug-in could be quickly introduced.
                          Home Automation is not an appliance. Nowhere near. At least not yet.

                          There is an entire topic in this Forum dedicated to technology and technology companies in the HA business that have come and gone. Currently, there is nothing stopping Matter from making that list one day. HST is not immune from failure, but, in the almost 18 years I have been using Homeseer, they have always come through the storm and come through for their client base. That is not to say I haven't been royally pissed off at times or that others haven't left HST because of some actions, BUT, when all is said and done, there is no more reliable, compatible or robust home automation tool out there than Homeseer. If there were, this forum would be a lot smaller.

                          I used X-10 exclusively for over 30 years. I know what a PITA a poor HA system network can be. My HS1 system was X10 and RF. My HS2 system was X10, RF and Z-Wave. My HS3 system was X10, RF, Z-Wave and WiFi.. My HS4 system will be X10, RF, Z-Wave, WiFi, Zigbee and ?. My point here is that Matter is already a non-starter. It will never be as compatible. With Homeseer, we can use the best device for the job no matter the protocol.

                          Finally, We have an event we use EVERY night that turns off up to 43 Z-Wave devices, 24 WiFi devices and 2 IR devices (among other things). Initially, it didn't work completely the first or second time. Then it would work, but not always. Then it would work, but took FOREVER. After several YEARS of bitching about it (on here and at home....) I found I was not doing it the best way. It wasn't wrong, but it was not the most efficient way. It still might not be the most efficient, but now it happens within 10 seconds. EVERY TIME. Put some different eyes on your problem network. I did, and that has made all the difference.....
                          .

                          Comment


                            #14
                            SeattleDavid Our home only has probably shy of 100 z-wave devices so it's not like your 300 devices scenario. I don't have any issues with delays. When I tell Alexa to turn something on it happens within a second or so and that probably includes a round trip to the online Alexa service. If you have 300 devices then you probably have a huge home so maybe you need a second z-wave controller. Still, delays of 20-90 seconds sound strange even with just one controller. Note that for HS4 there were some reports what with the z-wave plugin there were some big delays. But it sounds like you had this problem for a long time.

                            As for "matter", I have never heard of it before. If Apple, Google and Amazon are really in a consortium pushing a new home automation standard then it cannot be underestimated. I just don't quite see how they would put their MAIN emphasize on a common solution, especially Apple who has a VERY closed system.

                            As for z-wave, it has some issues but a few years ago when I decided on a technology I did a lot of research and z-wave was the way to go. Despite some problem I still think it was the right decision. I see a tendency towards WiFi because that is what people are more familiar with. I wouldn't call it superior, though. And as somebody else pointed out, HS can work with many protocols.

                            Btw, Aeotec says "Matter provides an improved level of interoperability and security between home automation products built atop of Zigbee". Also other searches indicate matter is just enhancing zigbee which has it's own limitations just like z-wave.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I swear that I will never wade into these discussions... but just to get it out of the way, everyone here is wrong </sarcasm>

                              With that out of the way, Matter is a rebranding of ChIP, which in turn is built on top of Zigbee 3.x or greater. Although Zigbee operates in the same 2.4Ghz RF range as 802.1x WiFi, it is in fact not WiFi (i've had to tune my Wifi and Zigbee networks to not interfere with each other). Current word in the industry is that any newer ZigBee 3.x devices that support OTA updates should also be upgradeable to Matter.

                              That being said, right tool for the right job. As others have said, I've been doing HA for two plus decades, tried every technology. My conclusions:
                              • Z-wave devices (dimmers, switches, etc) are optimal for load control. Instant status, direct associations, etc make for a very functional house.
                                If you want something even better/pricier for light control, go with something proprietary like Lutron.
                              • Z-wave battery devices, at least 300- and some 500-series, are an abomination. I do have 500-series sensors that have seem to solve the battery drain issues, but these are simple door/window sensors that don;t have to report all the time. I gave up on the 4-in-1 types sensors, most people mask the battery drain issues by powering them full-time.
                              • Zigbee battery sensors are absolute heaven. Nothing to tweak, they just work (if your Zigbee mesh is designed properly). Extremely small devices (high WAF) that use coin batteries that last over a year. Oh... and they are more than *half* the price of similar Z-wave devices.
                              • Z-wave locks like Schlage are extremely reliable, my 300-series locks are going on over several years old. Again, proper Z-wave network design is key.
                              As others have said, HS4 might not be the end all be all, but is a very good integration platform that is not dependent on one single protocol. I can't reiterate it enough, when if comes to the actual devices, right tool for the right job.

                              One more thing... all of the technologies mentioned like Zwave, zigbee, Matter.... they were all started (in some way) or owned by Silicon Labs. It's probably in their best interest to keep them all going

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