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Mini-split A/C and Hardwired TStat

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  • BeachBum
    replied
    I have an MXZ condenser with 5 MSZ wall units. I purchased 5 PACs and 5 Ecobees to automate each zone, but so far only have 2 zones installed at this time. I can tell you a few things:
    - Don't use the remotes if you have the PAC installed on that wall unit. I can confirm - in my experience - they do not work together properly.
    - I do use the remotes on the three zones that do not have the PACs installed yet. They work.

    Overall, Ecobee/PAC works - mostly. I am having one problem that I'm still sorting through, I don't think it's related to still using the remotes on some units. I believe it's related to how the Ecobee is configured & PAC switches are set.

    When it is first turned on everything works as expected - heating/cooling starts, if setpoint is not reached, stage 2 kicks in, setpoint is reached and it turns off. All fine and good. It's a vacation beach house & it experiences extreme temperatures both hot and cold, and the unit is a bit undersized. The problem - if it is very hot or cold outside, the unit struggles to reach setpoint and runs for hours. It drops back to Stage 1 after several hours, and then it will definitely never reach setpoint. I have not been able to pinpoint how long it runs at Stage 2 before 'resetting' to stage 1 - this happens overnight, or during the day while we are not home. Turning all units/stats to OFF, and then turning them back on solves the problem. It works as expected, with Stage 2 kicking in properly.

    Since it's a vacation home, it has not been a priority to figure this out, but I'm working on it. I suspect DIP switch settings on the PAC may correct this problem.

    Leave a comment:


  • jgreenberg01
    replied
    I'm still working my way through this, but has anyone actually used the PAC-US444CN-1 interface with a Mitsubishi mini-split?

    I'm getting conflicting answers as to whether the RF remote will still work when using an external TStat. The manual has this:

    Click image for larger version

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    But I've had others tell me otherwise.

    This is incredibly frustrating!

    Leave a comment:


  • jgreenberg01
    replied
    Originally posted by silverton38 View Post

    You can install a regular Tstat for most split units. Check your installation manual for details.
    This is not what I am finding. My recycle bin is full of downloaded installation manuals from various manufacturers that make no mention of connect external TStats.

    Through speaking with the good folks on this forum, as well as the HVAC vendors my company uses to install the units in the homes we sell, I have only identified 2 manufacturers thus far that will absolutely do this.

    They are: LG & Trane (Mitsubishi).

    There are lots of manufacturers that will allow a "smart TStat" connection through wi-fi, which is what I specifically do NOT want to do. I am trying to avoid getting into a situation where the only external control is through a cloud service.

    If you do know of another brand that does this, I would be grateful if you would share.

    For now though, it will be LG or Mitsubishi, depending on what discounts - if any (there's some advantages to being in the new home biz!) can get me.

    Leave a comment:


  • fresnoboy
    replied
    Originally posted by GadgetHome View Post

    How frustrating, then. Obviously, I am no HVAC expert, and based on what you are saying neither was my dealer and the Mitsubishi rep. This makes me want to scream. It is maddening when the folks selling a product don't know the product they are selling.

    Would you share where did you find that info? I would like to present it to my dealer and have a little discussion.

    Thanks.
    --Dennis
    Dennis, your rep was mostly correct. Going with a 2 stage thermostat wiring and the thermostat adapter does give the system more than just on/off, but still not as efficient as the scroll inverter can operate. It's a matter of degree. For me, the benefit of maximum efficiency and comfort from a VRF style system is something I didn't want to compromise on. The kumo system gives you that.

    Leave a comment:


  • GadgetHome
    replied
    Originally posted by copras24 View Post
    Dennis,

    The PAC-US444CN (T-Stat Interface) does NOT make the inverter system operate as a conventional system with 0 or 100% capacity. If proper settings are adjusted via DIP Switches on the PAC-US444, and the T-Stat is adjusted for 2H/2C, the system will operate with variable capacity as intended. The interface monitors the Y1/Y2 or W1/W2 signals simply to know how close to Set-Point the room-air temp is. if the Y2 or W2 signals are energized, the system will operate at full capacity. If only the Y1 or W1 are energized (meaning that room temp is close to set point), the system will modulate capacity to stay in that zone for as long as possible. If Y1 or W1 de-energize (no voltage), then the PAC-US444 just learned what the Set Point is on the third-party thermostat.
    How frustrating, then. Obviously, I am no HVAC expert, and based on what you are saying neither was my dealer and the Mitsubishi rep. This makes me want to scream. It is maddening when the folks selling a product don't know the product they are selling.

    Would you share where did you find that info? I would like to present it to my dealer and have a little discussion.

    Thanks.
    --Dennis

    Leave a comment:


  • silverton38
    replied
    Originally posted by jgreenberg01 View Post
    I know this has been discussed before, but my question is a little different.

    I am going to add A/C to my garage, and a mini-split is my preference because I'm not sure where I'd put an air handler for a regular unit. Plus mini-splits are cheaper!

    While those remotes they include are fine, I also want to control it through HS4. Some of the manufacturers offer "smart" solutions which seems to always require using their proprietary app. Others allow a 3rd party smart wi-fi TStat, but they also require a cloud connection.

    This is a new installation so I can use any brand I want, but the manufacturer websites aren't clear on adding a wired TStat.

    Yes, I know I can use an IR blaster, but that doesn't provide 2-way communication.

    Don't want to go the wi-fi route unless there's one that does not require an internet connection and will integrate with HS4. Another potential issue with wi-fi is the manufacturer messing with their API (like what just happened with MyQ last week that required days to get fixed!).

    My preference is to find a way to use a Z-wave TStat like the Honeywell I use to control my Carrier central air unit.

    I've also had an A/C contractor over and he's looking onto it for me, but it's been 3 days and no word from him yet.

    I suspect that Carrirer or Mitsubishi has some sort of module that let's you hardwire a TStat but I can't find it easily on the interwebs. So before I call their tech support, wait 45 minutes on hold, then try to interpret what someone from another country with marbles in their mouth is mumbling, I thought I would see if anyone here has figured this out already.

    Thanks in advance for any help!
    You can install a regular Tstat for most split units. Check your installation manual for details.

    Leave a comment:


  • copras24
    replied
    Dennis,

    The PAC-US444CN (T-Stat Interface) does NOT make the inverter system operate as a conventional system with 0 or 100% capacity. If proper settings are adjusted via DIP Switches on the PAC-US444, and the T-Stat is adjusted for 2H/2C, the system will operate with variable capacity as intended. The interface monitors the Y1/Y2 or W1/W2 signals simply to know how close to Set-Point the room-air temp is. if the Y2 or W2 signals are energized, the system will operate at full capacity. If only the Y1 or W1 are energized (meaning that room temp is close to set point), the system will modulate capacity to stay in that zone for as long as possible. If Y1 or W1 de-energize (no voltage), then the PAC-US444 just learned what the Set Point is on the third-party thermostat.

    Leave a comment:


  • GadgetHome
    replied
    Originally posted by copras24 View Post
    You can integrate any Mitsubishi or Trane (OEM Mitsubishi) mini-split or VRF indoor unit to HS with a T-Stat Interface adapter PAC-US444CN-1 + a 240Vac (primary) to 24Vac (secondary) Xformer + any third-party Z-Wave T-Stat. No cloud service is needed. See attachment.

    I'm using a Trane XL624 t-stat (no need to connect to Trane's Nexia Cloud Services). It integrates with Alexa as any other ZW T-stat.

    http://mylinkdrive.com/viewPdf?srcUr...-US444CN-1.pdf

    https://www.amazon.com/Mitsubishi-El...0947442&sr=8-6

    https://www.amazon.com/TRIAD-MAGNETI...0947534&sr=8-3

    Hope this helps.
    I recently installed a Mitsubishi split system. Here's what I learned.

    I first went with the PAC-US444CN thermostat interface and had all Honeywell T6 z-wave thermostats on hand. I had spoken with Mitsubishi tech support several times to confirm that configuration would work. However, the three different people I spoke with at technical support always added that "not all features would be available," though none could tell me what features I would be giving up. That changed when the Mitsubishi rep showed up to check on the install that was in progress, he provided a little more information. While the configuration will "work," it will not work well, he said. As it turns out, most (perhaps all) wired thermostats perform binary on/off cycles with the Mitsubishi heat pump instead of adjusting the performance of the inverter. So instead of operating at variable rates, rising and falling based on temperature, the wired thermostats would operate the heat pump at either 0 or 100 percent--all or nothing--forfeiting a lot of the efficiency.

    Well, that made sense to me. I gave in and went with the Mitsubishi RF thermostat with Mitsubishi's "Kumo Cloud" and returned the several hundred dollars worth of z-wave thermostats I had purchased. (I still use a couple of T6s for my heating system and love them.) Fortunately for me, the dealer agreed to eat the cost of the change because it had failed to advise me of, and had not been aware of, the limitations of a wired z-wave thermostat.

    Here are the results:
    The Mitsubishi RF thermostats are made by Honeywell and look identical to the T6 z-wave units. While HomeSeer is not yet talking with my Mitsubishi system, it turns out that the cloud solution with scheduling fulfills 95 percent of my automation needs. And my electric bill reflects the savings created by the heat pump inverter. Admittedly, I have trouble with being forced go to the cloud to control something in my own home, and I would like more control via HomeSeer. But life is full of trade-offs, and in the larger scheme of things, this trade-off has not been that bad for me.
    --Dennis

    Leave a comment:


  • copras24
    replied
    You can integrate any Mitsubishi or Trane (OEM Mitsubishi) mini-split or VRF indoor unit to HS with a T-Stat Interface adapter PAC-US444CN-1 + a 240Vac (primary) to 24Vac (secondary) Xformer + any third-party Z-Wave T-Stat. No cloud service is needed. See attachment.

    I'm using a Trane XL624 t-stat (no need to connect to Trane's Nexia Cloud Services). It integrates with Alexa as any other ZW T-stat.

    http://mylinkdrive.com/viewPdf?srcUr...-US444CN-1.pdf

    https://www.amazon.com/Mitsubishi-El...0947442&sr=8-6

    https://www.amazon.com/TRIAD-MAGNETI...0947534&sr=8-3

    Hope this helps.

    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • randy
    replied
    The new DIY line is very good indeed. I hadn’t looked at it until now. The quick connect pre charged line sets are a great idea. If you need to go beyond 25 feet, you can add 25 feet more at a time.

    Thanks for pointing this out. It would be a great choice for many people. Even though I have the tools and gasses, I would consider this solution were I to install another unit.

    What I find interesting is that years ago I believe Mr Cool was a Mitsubishi marketing name. Now it looks like MRCOOL is based out of Kentucky and is selling units they source from China.

    Leave a comment:


  • BraveSirRobbin
    replied
    Originally posted by randy View Post
    Mr. Cool (Mitsubishi) is a very good product, albeit more expensive than many others. They offer a wired thermostat. All of the mini splits are ready for DIY. They come pre-charged with enough refrigerant for a 25 foot line set. All you really need is a vacuum pump that can draw it down to ~500 microns and some nitrogen. If you need to use a longer line set, you will need to add refrigerant, but it is not difficult. Just be careful in your measurements of the line set and your calculations.

    I considered the Mr. Cool, but couldn't justify the cost difference. My two units totaled $6300, the same thing in Mr. Cool was $9000. My prior good experience with LG, our other very good LG appliances already using ThinQ and the available plug-in made my decision toward the LG. I do believe Mitsubishi is at the top of the list with regard to quality, but LG is right up there as well.
    I don't want to derail the topic, but the Mr. Cool (Generation Three) system I purchased was around $1400 including all accessories (mount, electrical disconnect, etc...) to install it.

    Example cost

    This was a 12,000 BTU system that operated on single phase 120 VAC. I installed the entire system myself, no technician, no electrician, no vacuum pump, no nitrogen, and no filling of Freon. The beauty of this system is it is totally DIY, you only need a hole saw and adjustable wrench/screwdriver for installation! This price may be a bit higher than other models, but you have to have a professional HVAC installer, or buy the vacuum pump/nitrogen/gauges/flare kit/etc... to install it. If you add all of this (technician time or procuring the additional installation items) I bet you find this system to be a bargain.

    They also have many other models, some of which can interface with three separate air handlers.

    It came with a WiFi adapter, which I know isn't the optimal interface for the OP, but there was a 'way' to interface this with HomeSeer in my quick research.

    A similar LG system with the line set and mount (apples to apples comparison) is around $1000, but again, this does not have the same DIY features as the Mr. Cool. If you have all the equipment (and know how), yes, the LG system is a better price.

    Just wanted to clarify my original post.

    Regards,

    BSR

    Leave a comment:


  • jgreenberg01
    replied
    Originally posted by stefxx View Post

    Just to avoid any disappointment; the LG plugin is only available for HS4. There is also a (legacy) HS3 LG plugin from another developer which (as far as I know) only supports Air Conditioners, and only v1 WiFi modules (which I guess are almost obsolete by now).
    Thanks for the proactive disappointment avoidance post.

    Apologies for the wrong info in my post, I didn't realize HS3 isn't supported by the PI.

    I use HS4 so all is good in my case!

    Leave a comment:


  • stefxx
    replied
    Originally posted by jgreenberg01 View Post
    The LG uses wi-fi, but there's a specific ThinQ plug-in for HS3/4.
    Just to avoid any disappointment; the LG plugin is only available for HS4. There is also a (legacy) HS3 LG plugin from another developer which (as far as I know) only supports Air Conditioners, and only v1 WiFi modules (which I guess are almost obsolete by now).

    Leave a comment:


  • randy
    replied
    Originally posted by BraveSirRobbin View Post
    I'm surprised nobody mentioned the Mr. Cool product line, given it is totally DIY. I installed one completely by myself a year ago (I have no HVAC experience) and it works great for heating and cooling (single room install). I did a quick search and found THIS post about interfacing it with HomeSeer (sounds like a work in progress though).
    Mr. Cool (Mitsubishi) is a very good product, albeit more expensive than many others. They offer a wired thermostat. All of the mini splits are ready for DIY. They come pre-charged with enough refrigerant for a 25 foot line set. All you really need is a vacuum pump that can draw it down to ~500 microns and some nitrogen. If you need to use a longer line set, you will need to add refrigerant, but it is not difficult. Just be careful in your measurements of the line set and your calculations.

    I considered the Mr. Cool, but couldn't justify the cost difference. My two units totaled $6300, the same thing in Mr. Cool was $9000. My prior good experience with LG, our other very good LG appliances already using ThinQ and the available plug-in made my decision toward the LG. I do believe Mitsubishi is at the top of the list with regard to quality, but LG is right up there as well.

    Leave a comment:


  • jgreenberg01
    replied
    Originally posted by BraveSirRobbin View Post
    I'm surprised nobody mentioned the Mr. Cool product line, given it is totally DIY. I installed one completely by myself a year ago (I have no HVAC experience) and it works great for heating and cooling (single room install). I did a quick search and found THIS post about interfacing it with HomeSeer (sounds like a work in progress though).
    I looked at the Mr. Cool mini-splits, but I can't find anything that allows for a hardwired TStat.

    They can use wi-fi smart TStats but that's what I am trying to avoid. The LG uses wi-fi, but there's a specific ThinQ plug-in for HS3/4.

    I'll try that first, but the reason that LG is in the lead at this point is because it has dry contacts for a regular thermostat, or in this case a Z-wave one that I can have complete control over with HS4.

    I'm determined to make this happen and have my climate screen ready to go - I just need the right mini-split then I can fill in the empty panels:

    Click image for larger version

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    The screenshot is from Designer, everything aligns better on the Android tablets.
    Attached Files

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