Smart Electrical Panel

[mulu]

I still don't understand this statement:

"Due to CA code we have to keep the original 200A electrical panel."

I have yet to read a user review of the SPAN panel where this was ever mentioned and why.

Maybe SPAN doesn't have that many customers yet... Or maybe nobody cares having the SPAN panel next to the almost empty main panel... Who knows. But according to SPAN, CA, AZ and FL require a meter-main panel with a main disconnect switch. I guess(!) it has to be something like the image below where the the meter and main disconnect are in the same unit. That means the SPAN becomes a subpanel. I don't know if that has any code complications but in my case it prevents connecting the SPAN panel through circuit breakers in the main panel. That's because our (and supposedly many other) main panel only allows up to 100A circuits. A 200A connection can be accomplished via the bus bar, though. Then from the SPAN panel I would need a connection to our 100A sub panel but SPAN only allows 90A so I am loosing 10A which isn't ideal because we have multiple high amperage connections on that sub panel. Maybe I could leave the current 100A circuit inside the main panel as for my existing subpanel I would need another SPAN panel anyways.

I might just go with something like the smart Leviton circuit breakers. I am currently investigating that route. Scheider supposedly also has a smart panel with an API so that might be another option.

As for API, SPAN hasn't anything ready yet that they could publish. Maybe sometime down the road but it sounded like it will take a good amount of time.

[TC1]

Unless you refer solely to proprietary stuff, not true, here. I've installed panels and meter bases before. Then one calls the town inspector, gets the approval and sign-off for work performed, and contacts the utility to plug the meter in and attach the tamper seal. Then you are in business for no more charges than the inspection and parts.

PS
My point was that if proprietary software is needed for "commissioning," do trivial changes break the "commissioning" and require an "approved installer" to get you working again? How much and how long would one find themselves beholding to the manufacturer for the continued usability of the system?

On your first point, that is definitely YMMV. Here in NY, almost all municipalities require a licensed plumber or electrician to do major changes in your house. Changing out an electrical panel would definitely fall into that category. I know that in California, because of the risk of earthquakes upsetting structures, they are also very strict about this type of work.

On your second point, reading through their materials, it's clear (to me) that they addressed your concern. The installer app is just a convivence so that all the pertinent information can be gathered and uploaded to the company after the electrician/installer is finished. They go on to state (as I indicated in another message in this thread) if you make changes to the panel such as breakers, adding, circuits, etc, you simply need to contact them to ensure the management software has captured those changes accurately. This can all be done by the homeowner.

If they go out of business tomorrow, your panel still operates just fine.

[ewkearns]

The panel has to be installed by a licensed electrician, that's true in any municipality in the USA. This is basically the electrician signing off on the install and assuring the company has an accurate representation of the setup/install. Not sure how this would be an issue?

Unless you refer solely to proprietary stuff, not true, here. I've installed panels and meter bases before. Then one calls the town inspector, gets the approval and sign-off for work performed, and contacts the utility to plug the meter in and attach the tamper seal. Then you are in business for no more charges than the inspection and parts.

PS
My point was that if proprietary software is needed for "commissioning," do trivial changes break the "commissioning" and require an "approved installer" to get you working again? How much and how long would one find themselves beholding to the manufacturer for the continued usability of the system?

[TC1]

I still don't understand this statement:

Due to CA code we have to keep the original 200A electrical panel.

I have yet to read a user review of the SPAN panel where this was ever mentioned and why.

[mulu]

My goal wasn't just measuring current draw. We will get a hybrid in a couple of years, later an EV, add solar before they switch to net metering 3.0, switch to heat pumps, an NG generator (since we now depend much more on electricity) etc. So having a smart panel would have been nice but not $20k nice...

[TC1]

If your only goal was to simply measure current draw, then yes, there are much cheaper and easier ways to do that.

A Smart Panel is for folks looking for true operational energy management capabilities, which is not the same as simply monitoring. In my next house I definitely see at least one EV in my garage, solar panels, and either storage batteries or a backup generator. That's where the Smart Panel's strengths will shine in automatically managing of all those capabilities.

[mulu]

I talked to SPAN and it's a no-go due to cost.

On the positive side, SPAN worked with our utility company (and I am sure many others) to introduce that rebate. That's why the open API is a requirement for the rebate, i.e. it is something that currently only SPAN has. I actually like that open API. It would be nice if other companies would do this, too. That way when a company goes belly up after you have spent $$$ on a smart panel it will still work via local control. As for the circuit breakers, they are standard 1" circuit breakers so you can have any electrician (or even yourself) replace the breakers. That makes sense because when you look at their website you see that the smarts are on a panel behind the actual circuit breakers.

Now the bad thing. Due to CA code we have to keep the original 200A electrical panel. So what SPAN would do is leaving the 200A main switch in the existing main panel. Then they move all the circuit breakers from the existing main panel to their SPAN panel. That means their panel becomes a subpanel. Our main 200A panel only allows 100A subpanel. And due to technical limitations of the SPAN panel that is reduced to 90A. So we would have to replace the main panel to allow 200A subpanels. That's a tier 3 service so installation is $8500. So that's $8500 for installation and $4500 for the panel for a total of $13k. Even if we didn't have the issue with the main panel that only allows 100A subpanels it would still be $5300 for tier 2 installation and $4500 for the panel for a total of $9800.

To make things worse, our subpanel has circuits that draw a lot of power. They definitely would have to be managed by SPAN. The subpanel is kind of far from the main panel. So that means we need a second SPAN panel (which we might have needed anyways as the SPAN panel cannot accommodate enough circuits). So that's another $4500 for the panel and probably about $3000 for installation for a total of $7500. So in our case moving to SPAN costs $20.5k minus the rebate which covers about sales tax. It would have been nice to have this SPAN panel but with 200A I think we don't absolutely need a smart panel.

I probably will just add current clamps to the two panels to check on power usage. I know some on these forum use such solutions and integrate it into HS4/HSTouch. I need to look into those.

[TC1]

The website still mentions an "Installer App" necessary to "commission" the panel. (Whatever that means.)

The panel has to be installed by a licensed electrician, that's true in any municipality in the USA. This is basically the electrician signing off on the install and assuring the company has an accurate representation of the setup/install. Not sure how this would be an issue?

[ewkearns]

The website still mentions an "Installer App" necessary to "commission" the panel. (Whatever that means.)

[kenm]

They only need to know what was changed so that the app can be updated for your setup. Everything I've read/viewed indicates you can use whatever breakers you want (one video shows a homeowner review where he utilized all his previous breakers from his old panel).

Adding Circuit Breakers, Solar, Batteries to Your SPAN Panel – SPAN
Adding or Modifying Breakers (Circuits) In Your SPAN Panel – SPAN

That's why I qualified my comments. Good to know that's no longer the case.

[TC1]

It may not be the case now, but the last time I looked at SPAN, you could not replace individual breakers yourself. You had to have a technician visit and shutoff the Mains in order to have it repaired. Again, this may have changed but was a non-starter for me.

They only need to know what was changed so that the app can be updated for your setup. Everything I've read/viewed indicates you can use whatever breakers you want (one video shows a homeowner review where he utilized all his previous breakers from his old panel).

Adding Circuit Breakers, Solar, Batteries to Your SPAN Panel – SPAN
Adding or Modifying Breakers (Circuits) In Your SPAN Panel – SPAN

[mulu]

It may not be the case now, but the last time I looked at SPAN, you could not replace individual breakers yourself. You had to have a technician visit and shutoff the Mains in order to have it repaired. Again, this may have changed but was a non-starter for me.

That's a bummer. Thanks for pointing this out. I will check with them when they get back to me.

Btw, there are some other companies with smart panels but none mention an open API.

Leviton https://www.leviton.com/en/products/...l/load-centers
Schneider Electric https://shop.se.com/us/en/connected-home/energy-center
Lumin https://www.luminsmart.com/platform/...ectrical-panel

[kenm]

It may not be the case now, but the last time I looked at SPAN, you could not replace individual breakers yourself. You had to have a technician visit and shutoff the Mains in order to have it repaired. Again, this may have changed but was a non-starter for me.

[mulu]

Actually, I got my initial position from your comment, "The smart panel must provide an interface for local control (via a REST API or similar industrial standard) and all must be documented." My assumption was that this would not be required if the utility didn't intend to use it. Maybe I got that wrong. Anyway, SquareD claims to have the "smartest" panel. YMMV.

That requirement for the rebate is to cover the event when the equipment manufacturer cannot provide cloud-based monitoring and a control platform anymore. I read this as the utility company doesn't want the smart panel to become a dumb panel if the smart panel depends on cloud services and that service stops due to the company going out of business, or being acquired and the new owner stops the cloud service, etc. My thinking is that this is a good thing. It would even allow us to disconnect the smart panel from the internet and control it through the API that the manufacturer must publish and document.

[ewkearns]

This is true, even if it is not "cheaper," in the long run... it is much more practical after a tropical storm. I rely on electrical for HVAC, lighting, computer/Internet/TV and clothes drying, that's all. Everything else is LPG, with all of the salt and sand, here, NG is a non-starter, hell, we can't even keep the water mains and pressure sewers working for long between failures. We are served by an electrical cooperative and prior to the last major hurricane, their vendor Duke Power shut down the two nuclear reactors providing power for 2 weeks. We had to drive to Myrtle Beach just to see electric lights. Wish I had a "smart LPG gage" that I could access, mine phones home through 4G.

PS
Agreed that nobody around here is going to install breakers outside in the weather. That's nutz (and dangerous).