Newbie Automation Hardware Advice Please

[JLehnert]

Rick, Smee,

You misunderstood what I wrote. Reread it again. I'm NOT saying put everything on a single piece of hardware. You're correct that doing that would just move the single point of failure.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It is a much better design when the subsystems are reasonably self sufficient. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The major design rule for my home Automation venture was that every subsystem would work reasonably without HS so there is really no single point of failure. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Barry is doing exactly what I'm advocating. Individual components that will continue to function if the integration point (HS) goes down. I would much prefer to get a call from a client saying "my system is acting funny" than one that said "nothing is working". The first (assuming it can't be fixed remotely) means a scheduled service call. The later means an emergency service call right away.
As for PC hardware, I've got a little experience in that area also. My first PC was a pre-production version of the old Radio Shack model I. I agree that a dedicated HS machine running a good OS is very stable. The PRO-100 takes care of my two main PC objections, namely mechanical parts and accessability. Getting rid of the HD and the fan eliminates 99% of the major problems I've had over the past ~28 years. At this point everything is equal. The MTBF of an IC in a HAI = MTBF of an IC in a ocelot = the MTBF of an IC in the Pro-100.

[smee]

Actually, as I reread all of these, I don't think any of us are really disagreeing with anyone else. Rick is primarily saying that a PC running HS can be as stable a component as any other. In your system (JLenhert), you could use multiple HS machines to control your stuff (replacing whatever you're using). I'm not saying this is a good solution (although it might help HS (the company) a bit with the extra licenses required) but it would allow you to distribute your system. That way, if your lighting HS machine went out, your sprinkler HS machine would still be ok.

I still don't really see what I'd call redundancy in your system. Having HS and something else both control lights isn't necessarily redundant - it's just two different control paths which may or may not interfere with each other.

I don't have any problems with offloading certain tasks to other devices (I enjoy designing and building these external devices). However, I do think that it can create more (or different) complications than running everything on one machine.

{edit follows}
An aside (since JLehnert added to his post after I posted mine)...

I also go back to the Radio Shack Model I (but not preproduction). That's back when people actually took soldering irons to their PCs to make modifications (adding lower case letters, for example).

But, the most annoying hardware failure I've had would affect any of the devides listed: ocelot, HAI, PC. I had a machine (PC) whose motherboard flexed when it warmed up and opened a cold solder joint. No moving parts needed to fail to crash this machine. You just needed to let it run for a while. This was not a problem in the winter when I got the machine since I kept my dorm room pretty cool. However, toward the end of the spring semester (when projects and papers were due), the machine started crashing. I had to run it for a month or so with the cover off and a room fan pointing down on the motherboard.

Anyway, this was just an aside to mention that not even removing all moving parts will solve everything.

[JLehnert]

Doh, I forgot the second item, accessability. Because the PRO-100 can be mounted in a structured wiring panel or rack, and lacks a keyboard and monitor, the kids are less likely to screw around with it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It's certainly not meant to be an attack on JLehnert's opinions.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not taken that way by any means. A good "discussion" is always fun.

[Rick Tinker]

And I was not disagreeing with Joe either, but on the one hand he said separate systems, but then on the other hand treated the PC like it was not a system - it was "the other thing". All I am saying is that it is no more/less a controller than anything else, and of course I agree with the model of having separate systems that run when disconnected but <span class="ev_code_PINK">"sing in harmony"</span> through HomeSeer, the conductor.

Oh boy, I laid that one on pretty thick...

So we are all conversing, discussing, and coming around in circles only to find we are all in agreement. I love it.

[Mark S.]

Since I seem to have stirred some controversy over my suggestion of a hardware controller (Stargate) to provide "backup" functionality - I feel an urge to comment.

I am firmly in JLehnert's "distributed system camp", but I do feel that the HS vs. HS+Controller decision is a personal one. And personally, I would recommend a hardware controller for the casual or beginning hobbyist (blafarm?).

I did not and would not claim that a hardware controller like Stargate is inherently more reliable than a HS PC. But as a few of you have pointed out, that is true ONLY - if you don't touch it! But for me, like many of us, home automation is a fill-in hobby. Since HS is more flexible than Stargate (as Rick proudly points out), I can't help but touch HS almost every week to add a new script, plugin, or piece of hardware - but I rarely have to tweak Stargate any more. Therefore I seem to break HS almost monthly, but Stargate keeps running without a blip.

Therefore I have adopted a suggestion from the author of the Stargate plugin. All "mission critical" functions (for me, mostly routine security and lighting-related stuff) are executed via Stargate. Stargate also tracks a "HS Running" flag. When HS goes down (usually a computer disaster of my own doing), Stargate sees that flag go off and takes over. It fills in for notifications, web control and many other HS functions. Redundancy is a good thing.

So for a hack like me, a stand-alone controller (Stargate) as part of a distributed system frequently saves my butt.

Mark

[blafarm]

Thank you all for your posts. These are all very interesting suggestions and opinions.

&gt;JLehnert,
Thanks for the link. I have little experience in programming these devices - so I have nothing to compare to...but I'll give it a shot and learn about the product in the process.

&gt;Rich,
My impression from reading a great many posts, on several different forums, is that HS is extremely stable and dependable - assuming, of course, that it is running clean scripts and loaded on a stable computing platform. I am guessing that in spite the quasi "solid state" nature of Homeseer Pro 100, it too will only be as stable as the scripts it is running.

Sadly, my experience up until this point is limited to some fairly rudimentary X10 projects. Being new to this level of automation, I have only spent time *thinking* about robust system design - not actually *implementing* it. I certainly see the advantage of having what you described as "a single place where I can look to view, change, or add to my automation routines". On many occasions, I have seen or designed over-engineered solutions that have failed mainly due to their inherent complexity. I find that it mostly happens when disparate systems need to be constantly updated or synchronized - or when they have routines that overlap or are in direct conflict with each other.

At the same time, I can appreciate the value of having subsystems that are capable of a certain level autonomy. For example, I can't imagine a scenario where I wouldn't want my Security System to be able to function without being connected to HS. I would think the same holds true for HVAC. I'm sure most people feel the same way. That's not to imply that HS or HS/PC is an inherently unstable platform - heck, I've watched two alarm panels and three Tstats fail in my home in the past seven years. Talk about single point failure!

Anyway, I personally believe that the combination of Hard Drives, Ventilation Fans, Graphic Cards, Processors, RAM, Operating Systems glitches and Viruses offer many opportunities for potential failure. Does that mean the one's computer is *going* to fail - absolutely not. Does it increase the chances that it *might* fail - I would have to say yes. That fact, coupled with the FUD quotient you referenced earlier in this thread, were obviously the genesis of the Pro 100... along with the desire to offer a simple turnkey product that integrators could embrace.

I don't know about anyone else, but it's not uncommon for me to take one of my servers down for a day or two to perform routine maintenance - or to swap out a component. Sometimes what starts out as routine maintenance - quickly turns into a more protracted process and I find myself waiting a week for a part. I guess my history with those events is what causes me to consider off-loading some of the more static and rudimentary automation functions to a controller. It isn't so much about redundancy (because there is none), or avoiding single point failure (because I haven't eliminated that) - its about having yet another subsystem, like my Security or HVAC system, that can tend to a set of static repetitive routines - and leave me with the breathing room to know that I can maintain or upgrade the HS/PC without completely affecting the rhythm of the house.

Hope that made sense. Like I said, these are the ramblings of a newbie. Talk to me in three months and I will probably have a completely different point of view!


Embarrassingly Basic Newbie Questions:

1. When HS is connected to an HAI or ELK M1Gold panel, that respectively supports either X10 or Z-Wave, does HS still need a dedicated CM11A Interface or Z-Wave USB Interface to dynamically control other modules throughout the home - or can it seamlessly and bi-directionally communicate with those modules through the panel's interface. In other words, do I have to buy external interfaces for HS - if I purchase a panel that is compatible with my modules.

2. What about Thermostats - can they too be seamlessly and bi-directionally controlled through the panel?

I'm guessing the quality of the plugin plays a big role in the answer.

Thanks for your feedback

[Rupp]

blafarm,
Sometimes this hobby can be an overwhelming at first and even becomes very difficult to make the first move. I found when I first got started many years ago it helped to start with a few lamp and appliance modules just to get going.

Then simply choose "automation projects" and begin. It helps to be involved a while to see what hardware you really need.

[BraveSirRobbin]

blafarm:

I'm not sure how much I can help you out here. Maybe cause more questions than answers but some things you might want to consider include:

The Elk M1Gold system was recently released. It is supposed to be a lot easier to program than say an Ocelot. It offers a lot of features and people have compared it as a merger of a security system and an Ocelot with an SECU16 (digital input/output module).

I currently have an Ocelot, Secu16, Caddx NX8E, and a dedicated Homeseer computer. I am also starting to dabble with Main Lobby and its interface with Homeseer via Krumpy's plugin. I also use the mcsOcelot plugin and Nitrox's Caddx Plugin.

If I were to do it all over again I would strongly consider buying the Elk M1 Gold system in place of the Caddx and Ocelot/SECU16. I also take (the unpopular it seems) belief that a PLC (programmable logic controller) is a lot more reliable than a PC based system. I'm not saying that Homeseer is unreliable, I have found it to be the opposite, just saying that I share the same philosophy as major industries operating critical functions, i.e. they do it with PLC based systems and let the PC do various non-critical reporting and interfacing functions. This is the same reason that you don't find any PC based (industry) security systems.

I like the fact that the ElkM1 Gold has ease of programming as well as various other features combined with a PLC and digital inputs very attractive. For instance I have to use a Caddx relay output connected to my Ocelot's digital input so I can do some complex (err at least beyond the normal Caddx programming capability) logic for my garage door sensor. The Elk M1 Gold would have let me do this with one unit. I really wish I had the Elk M1 Gold to play with it so I could do an accurate comparison. My knowledge comes just from reading its literature and talking to Leo over at ASIHome.com (he has one of these systems installed in his home).

I like the fact that Homeseer lets me use a Web Server interface and other features (Emailing, voice interface, camera pages, etc…). It is a great product and has really enhanced my home automation enjoyment and interface with my systems I mentioned above.

One other thing I wanted to ask is, are you considering using Main Lobby with your Homeseer or whatever you choose, for your home automation project (I am assuming you are the same blafarm as on the Cinemar forums)? If so you may want to consider some other options as well. For instance MediaStorm is going to write a Main Lobby interface for the Elk M1 Gold (sometime in the future, details not known right now). Also, as was mentioned earlier in this post others are trying to interface the Elk M1 Gold with Homeseer via a custom plugin. I realize this goes against the SWAT method (sell what is available today), just thought I would mention it.

Also, Krumpy’s plugin is excellent for interfacing Homeseer with Main Lobby. The reason I bring this up is because of some path choices you may have in the future. For instance, Main Lobby directly controls the Elk M1Gold system, or Main Lobby interfaces with Homeseer, which will then interface with the Elk M1Gold via a Homeseer plugin.

If you go with what is available today you could have Main Lobby interfacing with Homeseer which interfaces with the Caddx and Ocelot via their individual plugins. If you don’t want to use an Ocelot, maybe Main Lobby will interface with Homeseer directly.

Hmmm, after re-reading this post it seems that it may cause more confusion than help! This certainly wasn’t the intent. Rather I was just trying to introduce various methods along with those listed here that you may want to consider.

Homeseer, Main Lobby, Caddx, Ocelot, and all their associated plugins are all VERY EXCELLENT products! I just wished I knew of all of these choices in my early stages of purchasing my HA gear which is why I posted this extremely long diatribe!

Anyways welcome to this board! Someone of your programming knowledge, experience and skills is a welcome asset for our community.

Kindest regards,

BSR

[Rick Tinker]

Mark S. - A computer has a motherboard, a processor, some interface cards, a hard drive and several other pieces of silicon and copper - is it not a hardware controller then?

PC does what it is told with firmware and software - JDS does what it is told with firmware and software.

There is no difference except in the bum wrap that people who have had bad experiences give to PCs.

[Rick Tinker]

blafarm,

Scripts do not interfere with the stability of HomeSeer - in 1.x you can get one into a state where it runs forever thus limiting what other scripts can be run (there is a limit) but in 2.0 that situation has been eliminated, and it is a 2.0 based system running on the HomeSeer Pro box.

Also, you described things operating without HomeSeer connected/running - perhaps my King's English is very poor, but that is exactly what I stated. In the Home Automation Bootcamp that I have been a part of teaching off and on over the years, we always say things like "we are a thermostat swapper" - we do not replace the HVAC system, we do not change the thermostat for a PC based thermostat - we simply swap the thermostat for a communicating thermostat so we can control it. All of the features of the thermostat are still there. This applies to everything. I can shut down my HomeSeer PC and everything in my home still works. The only thing I lose that is core functionality is that I installed some regular Z-Wave switches in place of two-way X-10 switches, so my X-10 transmitters that turn on the Z-Wave lights will no longer do that as HomeSeer relays that signal. I would have to turn on the Z-Wave light at the switch (oh my!) but that too is an example of just losing the automation, but the device still works. My music keeps playing though I cannot change the songs without opening a remote control window to that PC. My thermostats keep my house at the temperature they were last set at, and my security system still calls the monitoring service if there is an alarm.

RE: Maintenance - nobody that I know of here takes their systems down for a day for maintenance - you keep it maintained as you are using it. Note that when you back up the programming for your other systems, e.g. JDS Stargate as somebody mentioned, where do you store it? That's right, you store it on a PC... So while the JDS Stargate cannot be backed up without a PC, why is it we overlook the common sense procedure of good backups for the PC?

Although the HAI system can do X-10, the capabilities of the communications protocol between the HAI and HomeSeer are pathetic in this area, and the HAI still uses the type of X-10 interface that cannot receive extended data X-10 commands. Thus, the HAI plug-in does NOT support using it as an interface, although if you operate one of the X-10 "units" in the HAI panel it will indeed send the appropriate X-10 signal. Get a $35 PowerLinc USB for an inexpensive interface that works.

Thermostats can be controlled through the panel and thus the HAI plug-in, and the same HAI thermostats are apparently supported by the Elk panel. In the case of the stats connected to the HAI system, it does limit the amount of information and control - e.g. if you have heat pump thermostats, you cannot put them into Aux/Emerg heat when connected to the panel - you have to press the button on the thermostat. This limitation (and many others) are eliminated by connecting the thermostats directly to a serial port on the computer and using the new HAI thermostat plug-in.

The quality of the HAI plug-in is first rate! Excellent plug-in! (And can you guess who maintains that plug-in these days?)

[blafarm]

&gt;Rupp,
I'm sure you are right - at some point you just have to jump in the pool...or at least dip your toes in the shallows.
....Just trying to understand if a panel can act as a "pass-though" from an external device (HS) - or if it only fires off commands from its' own logic.


&gt;Brave Sir Robbin,
Thanks for the warm welcome. As you deduced, blafarm and I are one in the same - however I'm afraid my "programming knowledge, experience and skill" are still incubating in some Petri dish at the CDC in Atlanta. To be honest, I'm dabbling too, and I have much to learn but before I become fluent in any of this - but I suppose that's half the fun!

Thanks very much for the informative post. You should know that your original "If I had it do it all again" post is what prompted me to begin researching the Elk M1 Gold in the first place. I have read your well-written posts on both forums in the past, and concluded that your expression of interest in the M1 was of significance. Being new and inexperienced, I must admit that I am attracted by the promise of an all-in-one solution, beginners often think this way - although we all know that appearances are deceiving and that projects rarely end they way they start.

As for MainLobby, the answer is yes...I plan for the suite to serve as my front-end. Thanks for clueing me into the fact that MediaStorm intends to write a plugin....that is very interesting news. I have also read on this forum about Trovan starting on a plugin for HS, but I haven't read about anyone else. As I indicated earlier in the thread, I'll need time to get up to speed HS, and if there is a reasonable chance that a well-written plugin is forthcoming, I'll take a fly with the M1.

I haven't played with Krumpy's HS plugin as I am not yet a HS owner - but that is soon to change. It's true, there seems to be many ways to skin this cat and I thank you for taking the time to point them out.

Regards

[blafarm]

Thanks very much for the info Rick.

I'm having trouble guessing who maintains the HAI plugin. Can you give me a hint?

[Barry Gordon]

This has been one of the more interesting threads. I am solidly with "Tink" on the issue of "PC's are reliable". When I assemble them I only use commodity componets, no speical proprietary stuff. Hardware gets debugged by thousands of users over periods of time. The PC with good reliable commodity components has a very high MTBF, even as complex as it is. The MTBF of the new PRO line from HS will even be higher due to its "tightness"

In my personal experience the only times I have had a real failure of a PC was a MB failure after two years of use. And that has happened to me only once in a decade of PC puttering.

If you want HS on a PC to stay up leave it alone!

Of course that is impossible for most of us. Home automation is just our excuse for playing with the toys we love so much. All of those very speialized controllers limit what you can do with them. None are as flexible as HS nor as much fun to "Tinker" with. HS, IMHO, is the ultimate "Tinker Toy", just ask Tink.

I just changed all of the code for the alarm clock function for each bedroom in the house. I am sure I have introduced a measure of instability which I will work out in one or two days. HS will not crash. Some scripts might have a problem or two but that is all that will happen. I changed it because I wanted to, not because I needed to. It will be my changes that will cause the problem not HS. I guess my real hobby is changing things, not Home Automation.

[BraveSirRobbin]

I guess I view PC's and PLC's as totally different animals. One has just key dedicated functions and is designed with running those functions day in and day out. The other has a complex operating system which constantly needs updating, virus implementation (and updates), cleaned out (dust), alternative power (UPS), moving mechanical parts, etc... BUT it has a LOT more features which make all of this worthwile!

Different tools for different jobs. We need both of them and luckily we have something like Homeseer that can integrate the two! I certainly don't want to argue this fact as different people have strong opinions and various success and I can certainly appreciate and respect those opinions and experiences!

Oh my, I re-read my first post and saw through all of those words that I forgot to give a shameless plug to visit our site over at Cocoontech We also have occasional guest speakers for our Friday Night Chat sessions (Tink was one as well as Dan Reicher from Cinemar).

You will also want to visit Automated Outlet as well when you start purchasing your parts!

[JLehnert]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> So we are all conversing, discussing, and coming around in circles only to find we are all in agreement. I love it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, group hug time.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> does HS still need a dedicated CM11A Interface or Z-Wave USB Interface <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As Tink pointed out, the HAI plugin does not support x10 transmittions from the panel initiated by HS. As the M1 plugin has not been completed yet, who knows what it will support. Figure out what unit you want controlling the lights, and get the appropriate controller.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What about Thermostats - can they too be seamlessly and bi-directionally controlled through the panel? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BSR, Next time you talk to Leo, see if Elk did a good job on the HAI thermostat interface. IIRC from my conversations with Tink and others, all the necessary stuff is in the thermostat comms protocol, but HAI in their infinite wisdom didn't include the matching logic in the HAI panels. Be interesting if Elk does a better job supporting HAI stats than HAI did themselves.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> only times I have had a real failure of a PC was a MB failure <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Cripes! You must live right (or I'm living wrong ). Over the past umpty-ump years, I've had at least 5 HD units go, and I have to replace a cooling fan in at least one of my computers every six months. I think one of the fans in my HS box is starting to go now, as the temp alarm has been going off intermittantly lately.