Two X10 coupler-repeaters OK?

[BraveSirRobbin]

Bruce:

I'm not sure myself, but what I THINK Martin meant was that it would not "repeat" the extended codes. You are showing they are getting amplified which is what they should do, but they are not getting repeated, i.e. the command is not repeated.

I don't have one of these units myself but rather the one by X-10 (which if memory serves me correctly is the one you recommended to me) here

I always thought that the purpose of the amplifier/coupler/repeater was to amplify as well as repeat. Is this one in the same. In other words, they obviously boost (amplify) the signal, but by regenerating this amplified signal does this qualify as "repeating"?

The reason I thought they were two separate process is because I thought I have seen where a unit will not only "amplify" the signals, but also "repeat" them multiple times.

Of course, maybe I'm confused here also.

[JLehnert]

I think someone sold Martin a bunch of horse-patooty.
Everything I know/hear about Martin is that he's a great guy, so I've got to believe that either there was some mis-communication, or that bad/biased information was passed. There's a boatload of problems with some of his statements. I was going to give a call to the Levition guy in charge of the DHC development, but decided that I've got better things to do rather than spend time defending Leviton.

Getting to DC's original question, NO, you do not want to put in a second repeater. The recommendation for a BoosterLinc is a good one. Some repeaters have the capability to ignore repeated signals, or communicate between multiple units, but the Leviton is not one of them.

[Rick Tinker]

Yes, two repeaters is not good unless they are ones that know about repeated signals. I am not sure, but the ACT repeaters may be in that class.

I built my X-10 infrastructure before the days of Z-Wave and the BoosterLincs. What I did was put a coupler/repeater in one of my 200A panels and that handles the whole house, but then I also have a passive phase coupler in the panel for the generator. Thus, when the power is out and we are on the generator, I can still use X-10 on the devices on that panel, but the passive coupler does not harm the X-10 system when there is power and the active coupler/repeater is on-line.

[AutomatedOutlet]

Speaking of horse, I think we've beaten this to a dead horse. There are very distinct differences between most of the so called coupler/repeaters. I believe what I posted before as accurate. You can make your own decision on this but this topic has definately worn me out.

There are also differences between the ACT and X10 PRO coupler/repeaters but I won't even go there. In that case, I even had one of the manufacturers tell me that the other manufacturer's product works better...

There is a reason why some products cost more than others.

[AutomatedOutlet]

Rick,

I believe you're right about the ACT repeaters. They do have a little more intellegence built into them.

[JLehnert]

Martin,

I won't beat the dead horse as long as you don't keep injecting steroids trying to get it running again.

Just like you don't like someone paying $60 for something they don't need or won't work, I don't like people making decisions based on false information.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>That coupler/repeater only repeats the extended codes that most of us don't use. In other words, it does not do any more than the passive coupler in your Elk-9100.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The Leviton "coupler/repeater" will only repeat extended codes, not X10 standard codes.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutly 100% false. I know this by A) practical experience with some of my earlier installs B) conversations with Leviton and other distributors C) application of (a slight bit of) logic. At it's heart, the X-10 protocol is binary. To say that it only repeats extended codes is to say that the unit looks at the binary pattern, ignores the pattern if it does not contain the "extended" code (binary 01111), but repeats it if it does. Since the entire pattern must be stored into the buffer prior to being repeated, it makes not sense to toss out some but not others.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The problem is that standard X10 protocol passing through their repeater looses the three cycle gap so that all X10 protocol products either don't respond or lock up. Leviton in their own wisdom decided to veer off the X10PRO protocol by getting rid of the 3 cycle gap not realizing that all X10 protocol manufactures need that follow up command to assure the receiver is getting the proper information to turn on a load. The Leviton two way is different from the X10 standard extended code which makes the Leviton two way device receive wrong information regarding the status of on or off.

So in fact if someone is using all two way Leviton devices the system works fine but if they use any other X10 compatible product you risk having problems you can't fix. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There could be a difference when using 2-way devices. I doubt it, but as I don't use the Leviton 2-way, I can't say. I do know that there is a heck of a difference between "problems with 2-way devices", and "doesn't repeat standard X-10".

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Another way to think about it is like this. The Leviton coupler/repeater is about $60. All other manufacturers that sell a couple/repeater are about double, or more, than that. Do you think that Leviton is the low price leader by more than 50% for an identical product? I would doubt it. Also, I don't think that professional installers would be using other devices if they could get something that was the same for less than half the price.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At SmartHome, #4823 Leviton $89.99, #4820AC HomePro $119.99. Hardly twice the price. Further, considering the relative difference in size between the two companies, yes, they could get a significantly lower cost of manufacturing. Also, as pointed out earlier in the thread, the two are not identical units. The Leviton lacks some of the features of the other units, such as connectivity between multiple units, and logic to ignore repeated signals. Lastly, I am a (small) professional, and I do install the Leviton in some places. Some of your competitors are shipping gazillions of the units, and when their mix is 10% retail/90% wholesale, that's a lot of units going to professionals.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>That particular statement did come from a technician at a competitive company that did the testing.

If you want to get confirmation from Leviton, I would suggest you talk to Ian Henler from Leviton. At the CES show he was openly talking about it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suggest you call Ian back and ask if he agrees with the statement "The Leviton "coupler/repeater" will only repeat extended codes, not X10 standard codes". I doubt he will. You seem to be under the impression that Leviton switches ONLY respond to extended codes. In fact, probably 95% of the time the switches are used with standard commands (A1 OFF, B13 On, etc.). The only time they use extended code is for scenes and setting the level directly.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>There are also differences between the ACT and X10 PRO coupler/repeaters but I won't even go there. In that case, I even had one of the manufacturers tell me that the other manufacturer's product works better...

There is a reason why some products cost more than others <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. As with everything, you get what you pay for.

I suggest you go back and re-examine the data that led to your original statements. If instead of saying "Leviton doesn't work", you had said "X works better than Leviton because....", this horse would have long ago disappeared and showed up in a bottle of Elmers glue.

[JLehnert]

One more thing. (I'm awful long winded today)

One thing that I've seen some companies do is refer to the "X-10 Standard" and try to say someone else doesn't follow it. Ain't no such baby. It is a published protocol, with (unfortunetly) multiple interpretations by different companies when you get to the "extended code". X-10.com (the company) sells items that differ from the X-10 protocol, as defined originally by X-10 (the manufacturer). Leviton extended codes are different from the way other manufacturers use extended codes. The only offshoot from this is if you plan to use Leviton extended codes, only a Leviton repeater will work. The converse is NOT true, ie if you don't use Leviton extended codes, you cannot use the Leviton repeater.

[BraveSirRobbin]

Congratulations, JLehnert. You win; you have shown your technical superiority to all (BSR tips hat to you)! Hopefully in the process you didn't discourage one of the better members of this board from ever posting here again!

Martin was relaying information that he obtained from a manufacturer/vendor. If this was not correct, say so in a professional manner (you mentioned you were a professional) without ridicule.

Every reply I have ever observed Martin posting has been to try to help others with all information he may have at the time. This, combined with the fact that he stands behind his products, makes him very unique. He should be applauded for the fact that he stated he was not comfortable with this product. We should encourage members to state what they believe based on the facts they see as true. If people disagree, then we should open them up for healthy discussions and let each of us make up our own minds as to the ones they should follow.

[JLehnert]

BSR,

The reason I went to the trouble of following up on this was specifically BECAUSE Martin is one of the better members of the board. If he was some yoyo with 5 posts, everyone (including myself) would ignore him. However, he is a well regarded member of the board, with a long track record of trying to help others. I'm signed up with him as a dealer/installer, and you better believe I wouldn't do that if I had any inkling that he wasn't 100% honest.

In this case, I truly believe that either he misunderstood/misinterpreted something someone said, or someone gave him wrong information. Some of what he has said is just plain wrong. If Electron over on his board started saying that people shouldn't buy Homeseer because it only works in Canada, would you ignore it? No. You would ask him where he came up with that conclusion (unless it was Friday night when you would ask how many beers he had).

I don't believe I have ridiculed Martin at any point. In fact, I've been especially careful to make sure that I didn't accidently cast doubt on his character. As many people have pointed out, he provides supurb customer service, and should be commended for his actions. In this case, it's simply GIGO. Garbage in, garbage out. A manufacturer/vendor gave him incorrect information, and Martin in his quest to help other people, has passed it on.

Martin,

I hope you haven't taken this personally. It was never meant to be personal, and if I've offended you, I apologize. For heavens sake, don't stop posting just because I brought out the proverbial 2x4 to try to get you to re-examine your statements. If you choose not to carry Leviton becuase you've had bad service from them in the past, or too many defective items from them, or just decided that you didn't like the looks of their products, that's fine. However, to make the decision based on incorrect information, it does not do justice to yourself, your customers, or the people on this board.

I guess that I should also state that I have no relationship with Leviton, beyond installing their products, along with Compose, PCS, and now that I've hooked up with Martin, hopefully Smarthome.

[BraveSirRobbin]

JLehnert:

Well stated. I certainly didn't intend any hard feelings as well!

[AutomatedOutlet]

James,

No hard feelings although I still disagree. Even though the original source was a different manufacturer, I believe him to be credible. In addition, he also told me why one of his other competitors was better than the product he sells.

My preference is actually not even to use coupler/repeaters. I like the Lightolier firewall instead!

Martin

[glt]

DELETE DELETE DELETE

It is very difficult to be right - I know because:

"You can trust me, because I am always right and I never lie."

(That actualy comes from the same place as GLT -ends with Tire...)

Martin is an EXCELLENT vendor, I have dealt with him.

However, I stand by my previous post.

I only post now because I hope that this is like most of my posts - no one will ever reply.

Thanks,

GLT

[DC]

Getting back to the topic - I just want to report that the Boosterlinc that Martin recommended works very well. I have two newly installed inline modules for some landscape lights that were not working at all (they are a long way from the breaker panel). I checked the X10 signal strength at the nearest outlet and it was .36 volts consistently. I plugged the Boosterlinc into an outlet near the breaker panel and the signal strength immediately went to 2.36 volts consistently and the inline modules now work flawlessly. Thanks for the suggestion Martin. I will be ordering two more from you soon.