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**Rupp** · September 11, 2006, 12:14 PM

Do you have a coupler/repeater installed at the circuit panel? It sounds like you took care of the noise but now the signal is too weak to react correctly.

**kwolter** · September 11, 2006, 12:49 PM

Nope, no coupler/repeater. Seems strange though that signals get through if the TV is completely unplugged though. ???

**jackpod** · September 11, 2006, 01:07 PM

TV's are a big x10 signal sucker as well, anything with a power supply absorbs x10 signals. It sounds like you have a signal issue.

Not all of us are as lucky as Rupp, I know he doesn't have to use filters

, me I have several. They work for me. Put that TV on a filter as well. A signal repeater coupler is also necessary. The stronger the signal the better

**kwolter** · September 11, 2006, 03:03 PM

Are the coupler/repeaters a fairly straight install at the panel? I've done some light electrical work in the past, rewired outlets, etc.

Any models work better than others?

Thanks guys....

**Rupp** · September 11, 2006, 06:06 PM

Yes. They are very easy to wire. If I can do it anyone can. The hardest part is having 2 open breakers. I just piggyed backed off of 2 existing breakers. Yea I know not to code but....

**jackpod** · September 12, 2006, 01:03 PM

Rupp,

Ouch! Piggybacking is NOT a good idea. Does you panel use full or half hieght breakers? Before you ask, a full hieght breaker is one handle per breaker, half hieght is two. If your panel has full height you can get 2 half height and and will still be able to have access to both phases. Other than being unsafe, if by chance something terrible was to happen like a fire, more than likely your insurance company would void your insurance. If you would like I can try to help you solve this problem

Jack

**jackpod** · September 12, 2006, 01:19 PM

Kwolter, There are several repeaters couplers available. They come as 2 types, passive and active. Passive simply allows X10 to pass between the two phases, active amplifies the signal as well. Smarthome has one that plugs into the electric dryer outlet (minimal installation) a harwired unit needs to be installed in your main panel and requires 2 breakers. The active unit also installs in the main panel and requires 2 breakers. Is your panel with the breakers in the house or outside? If it is outside most of the active's are pretty much out of the question because they are not weatherproof, the passive can be mounted in a weatherproof box with a weatherproof blank plate.

For an active unit this is a good one
http://www.automatedoutlet.com/produ...?productid=210

For a passive unit
http://www.smarthome.com/4816h.html

for the plugin unit
http://www.smarthome.com/4816B2.HTML

**drozwood90** · September 12, 2006, 02:58 PM

Uhhmm...UPB?

Seems to work under any conditions that I can throw at it.

Also, I found that insteon switches KILL X10. As an experiment, to see why my UPB coupler (which states it can couple X10) was not coupling X10, I was asked to take ALL Insteaon switches offline.

It made my signals SO strong, the repeaters were repeating on each other (coupling through my electric water tank, electric stove).

I had to unplug them.

Without the Insteon switches, I am able to send all my X10, only 1 filter (on the UPS for the PC) to all 3000sq feet, NO coupler/repeaters...

I'm amazed that they can kill the signal THAT much. By putting ONLY 2 Insteons online, I need all but 1 repeater!!!

Anywhoo...UPB without ANY couplers of any kind, worst case 92% signal strength...NO couplers!!! No filters, NOTHING! (You can check by querrying the devices themselves, signal strength testing is built in!).

With coupler, there is NOT one place on my property that I can't get 98% or better signal strength!!

So, my short answer, UPB.

My long answer, check to see what kinds of X10 eating devices you have. You may need one repeater. You may need it in a funny place (as in a downstairs room to boost for the upstairs room...as you want to put the repeater 1/2 between the breaker box and device...assuming that you are using an active coupler....otherwise 1/2way (or 2 1/4 way each) between the CPU interface and the device).

Oh well, if you have questions, I've been fighting my issues with signal strength for a few months...and the funny thing...it all stemmed down to using a fancy switch (Insteon). Proven by pulling the power from them (8 of them).

I have also, due to this, put 8 other X10 devices on the power lines to see if it is just the number of devices...

NOPE...no coupler, no repeater necessary SO LONG AS THE INSTEON switches are not there.

Well, this is my experience...hope it helps.

--Dan

**kwolter** · September 12, 2006, 03:40 PM

jackpod- "...a harwired unit needs to be installed in your main panel and requires 2 breakers."

The passive unit installs in the main panel, or does it need to go into a single-gang junction box? As far as needing two breakers, I'm assuming these need to be one from each leg, correct?

**anogee** · September 12, 2006, 04:02 PM

I'm in the process of replacing all my X-10 with UPB, and I have the exact same noise and signal sucker problems with UPB that I had with X-10. I know I'll solve them, and I just added in a passive bridge that employs new inverter technology.

**swc69** · September 12, 2006, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by jackpod

TV's are a big x10 signal sucker as well, anything with a power supply absorbs x10 signals. It sounds like you have a signal issue.

Try plugging both the TV and the cable box into the filter. (instead of adding a second filter just for the TV itself).

Pick up a $3.00 non-surge suppressing power strip, plug that into the filter, and then plug the TV and cable box (and anything else - like DVD player, etc) into it. Make sure you stay within the rated amps of the filter. If its at least a 10 amp I would think you'd be good.

Steve C.

**kwolter** · September 12, 2006, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by swc69

Try plugging both the TV and the cable box into the filter. (instead of adding a second filter just for the TV itself).

Steve C.

Yeah, that's what I did. With no filter in place both on and off commands don't make it to the devices, and with it in place only off commands arrive.

50% successful!

Just a general comment, I'm only having this problem in one room of a condo. I was hoping that a noise filter would solve the problem. I have a pretty good supply of X10 equipment and didn't want to introduce another protocol until we make the "real house" purchase in a couple of years. Not so much due to the investment, but I was hoping that some of the other technologies will mature by then. It sounds like UPB is still somewhat prone to signal sucking and noise, Z-wave has yet other issues, Insteon is somewhat in development, etc. I know there is always going to be some situation where some device somewhere is going to to flaky, but I'm really hopeful that there will be a clear winner in 2-3 years!

Here's to the future! ;-)

**jackpod** · September 12, 2006, 06:16 PM

Originally posted by kwolter

jackpod- "...a harwired unit needs to be installed in your main panel and requires 2 breakers."

The passive unit installs in the main panel, or does it need to go into a single-gang junction box? As far as needing two breakers, I'm assuming these need to be one from each leg, correct?

If your breaker box is indoors like in your garage, yes you can put it in a single gang box. My main is outside and I have it laying on the inside on the bottom.
Yes it crosses both phases

**jackpod** · September 12, 2006, 06:27 PM

Kurt,

I had a similar issue. I found it to be the electrician who wired the house originally used cheap recepticles (the kind where you can push the wire in a hole in the back rather than wrapping it under the screw) once I replaced those my problem went away.

As far as the new technologies. I recently finished a very large addition to my house. I decided to put in Insteon (15 Icon dimmers and 6 keypads) within 3 months I pulled them all out (sold them for 1/3 of what I paid

) and because I couldn't find the x10 I wanted, ended up going with Zwave, so far the zwave has worked ok (once I got them setup, fortunately I haven't lost my associations for almost 2 months) If i was starting over, yes I would opt for UPB but I have well over 125 physical devices. No way could I afford that. Sure I don't have 100% reliability, but a missed trigger here and there is still better than no automation at all. I just couldn't imagine having to get out of car to open the gate or garage door, and what? you expect me to get up and go turn off the light in the other room because I forget to turn it off? I don't think so. X10 isn't perfect, but it is so much better than manual

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