Been away for a while, but now that I'm back...

[superhero9]

I've been away from home automation for several years now, so I'm trying to get my feet wet again. I'll be moving into a one-story, small house (<2,000 sq ft) and would like to start with HVAC and lighting control. I'm most interested in what protocol is best for a small budget (i.e., Z-Wave, X-10, etc) but is also reliable. Even better, can anybody point me to a recent article that gives the pros and cons to the different protocols?

Thanks!

Brent

[neiltimms]

If you looking for price and reliability z-wave is probably the best way to go. It's far more expensive than X10 but way more reliable and cheaper than UPB.

Of course it depends on your wiring in the house, if it is good then X10 may work well as long as you have a phase coupler and filters to get rid of the line noise.

Neil

[superhero9]

Same old, same old, huh?

Sad to hear that X-10 is still plagued with the same issues it had several years ago, it seems. Thanks for the response!

[completelyhis]

It's far more expensive than X10 but way more reliable and cheaper than UPB.

I'd politely dissagree with that. My upb is 100% reliable. Zwave may be as well, but that is not "more than" upb :-)

also, I just bought 16 upb switches from frys for $600 which again, may not be tons cheaper than zwave, but i think it shows that zwave isn't tons cheaper than upb, either.

[nsisman]

I too would disagree politely.

I guess it depends on what you want to accomplish with your equipment.

For my bungalow (admittedly small @ 1100 sq ft ) X10 only with a CM11a

interface, HCA02 coupler, a WGL800 antenna and the ACRF plug in my system

is solid with 59 devices and 64 events.


I can pick up MS13 sensors and ds10's well over 150 ft from the house.


I couldn't imagine spending $35 - $40 per device for 59 devices ?

The P3 733mhz it runs on was less than $40 !

I would recommend to start with some basic x10 stuff (cheaper).

Set up an event with a light and a palmpad and walk around and see what happens.

You can always sell the X10 stuff if it doesn't work out.

Neil

[fran_joel]

I too have an X-10 setup that works very well.

I have started to slowly phase it out for INSTEON.

Despite what many are saying, INSTEON is also an alternative
and is actually cheaper than both Z-WAVE and UPB.

[Rupp]

Let's not forget that one of the best attributes of HomeSeer is the fact that you can run X10, Z-Wave, UPB, and Insteon to a degree all at the same time. The more Insteon you add the worse your X10 will get. The beauty of Z-Wave is that it takes one of the biggest trouble makers out of the equation which is the powerline.

[neiltimms]

Guys i wasn't attacking X10, I know that for a some it works perfectly. But a simple search on this board alone will show that for many others there are issues. For me in my 130 year old house with wiring to match it just does not work, period.

My reference to UPB was about cost not reliability, sorry if that wasn't clear, i know the difference between X10 and UPB as far as reliability is night and day.

Neil

[TechnoCat]

Let's be realistic here. One problem is you're asking experts. Even worse, many of us are fan-boys for our technologies because we've invested heavily in them.

So unlike the "I disagree" posters, I'll try to be unbiased here and just give you pros-and-cons.

• X10
  • Cheapest
  • Widest variety of hardware
  • Very prone to spurrious signals
  • Can take a lot of work to achieve reliability
  • Reliability can then be destroyed as easily as plugging in a new laptop transformer!
  • Often requires a phase couplers, because it is PLC
  • Wireless bridges (small extra cost) make using remotes really easy.
  • No concept of a "network", so if you're close to the neighbors such as in a condo/apartment, your stuff may react to their signals... or you may be hosed by their appliances and transformers.
• Insteon
  • Much more expensive than X-10, only a smidge less than Z-Wave
  • Somewhat better reliability than X-10; fewer sporadic failures, but system failures (line noise, phase) are still present.
  • Often requires a phase couplers, because it is PLC
  • The "Dual-Mesh" technology isn't really there; they omitted RF from the switches for example.
  • Single supplier - SmartLabs - and they tend to have design and manufacturing woes.
  • Meaning the switches have the highest failure rates (independent of protocol reliability) on this board.
  • Can integrate well with X10 (though with HomeSeer this becomes a non-issue for all)
  • Decent remote-command support
• Z-Wave
  • More expensive than X-10, slightly more than Insteon.
  • Requires more set-up than other systems.
  • Removing a dead switch from your network can be annoying.
  • The protocol itself appears to be the most reliable - no need for phase coupler, for example, and line/RF noise is not a factor.
  • Supports wireless devices such as motion sensors.
  • Dreadful support for the concept of remotes though.
  • But the hardware often has bad ergonomics - the ViziaRF and Cooper lines are toggles, not switches.
  • And the dominant switch brand right now, ACT, has extremely poor reliability in Z-Wave even though their X10 switches were top notch.
• UPB
  • Most expensive of these choices.
  • The easiest powerline protocol to get reliably working.
  • But still prone to powerline issues and often still requires a phase coupler.
  • This is such a problem that there are actually MORE phase couplers available for UPB than for X10 or Insteon. Three fans yelling that phase couplers aren't needed can tend to drown out the facts.
  • UPB seems more prone to that type of fan boy misinformation than the other systems, perhaps due to the smaller installed base.
  • There is currently less selection for UPB hardware. But what's there seems of good quality.

I personally am currently using legacy X10 and newer Z-Wave, but I'm in a three-phase house with remote detectors and such. My big gripes with Z-Wave are the poor availability and functionality of remotes (for which I therefore use X-10 mostly) and the ACT switch issues. If your place is wired on a single circuit leg (no phase coupler), UPB is also a fine choice. I'd avoid Insteon due to the switch failures more than the protocol issues.

[nightwalker]

TechnoCat

That's as good a comparison as I've seen anywhere, nicely done. I'd like to add a couple of things if you don't mind.

Z-Wave
Can be subject to RF being blocked by some building materials. I had a house 2 months ago that the customer wanted Z-wave. This house had a lot of steel in the foundation and some I-beam columns with-in walls that completely blocked Z-waves RF signal.

UPB
No matter who says what use a phase coupler. It's as close to 100&#37; reliable as anything I've found, not including wired of course, but why would you put in a power-line carrier system and not give it all the support it needs. Doing other is just asking for trouble.

I've always hated seeing people trying to economize with X-10 by skipping the most necessary phase-coupler/repeater. I would be willing to bet more than half of the problems X-10 has, is because it's been crippled by not putting in the hardware it needs to work. UPB doesn't need the repeater but the phase coupler, absolutely. Can some systems work with out, sure but it'll be marginal and subject to less than stellar performance.

[superhero9]

Wow - it's great to see that this board is just as active and helpful as I remember it being. Still not sure which direction I'm going to go, but this definitely helps the process

[TechnoCat]

Z-Wave Can be subject to RF being blocked by some building materials. I had a house 2 months ago that the customer wanted Z-wave. This house had a lot of steel in the foundation and some I-beam columns with-in walls that completely blocked Z-waves RF signal.

UPB No matter who says what use a phase coupler.

Absolutely agree on both. If you have, for example, metal rather than plastic gang boxes, Z-Wave (and ZigBee) are pretty much out as choices. That's pretty rare but it happens.

The reason I stressed the UPB phase coupling issue - and I absolutely agree with you on it - is the number of people even here claiming that UPB is 100% reliable and doesn't need phase coupling. As I said, a few people shouting can drown out the facts.

[Madcodger]

I have over 70 Insteon devices, but you couldn't pay me to use the stuff again, if you GAVE it to me. Others may have wonderful stories of the stuff (someone always chimes in telling us that the stuff is just the best thing since sliced bread) but I've had many, many mechanical failures (switch paddles that won't turn on, or off, of both) even on units that are used less than once each month. And it's NOT just on a certain batch of units. It's happened on units shipped more than a year apart. Others have failed b/c they won't respond to Insteon signals, although that's happened much less often. And the PLM is STILL undergoing firmware changes.

I sure wish someone had warned me against using this stuff. Actually, one supplier (who sells just about everything) did, and I certainly should have listened. My next switches, as I need to replace these when they fail out of warranty, will be either UPB or Z-wave. And my Smarthome catalogs now go directly into the recycling bin.

[nightwalker]

And my Smarthome catalogs now go directly into the recycling bin.

On that i have to agree with you, pretty much where mine go as well. It's a shame i used to be a big Smarthome supporter. Too many times exchanging equipment that didn't work at all or failed soon after install, some even lasted a few months. I had a whole house of keypadlincs at one point, whatever it is they did on the manufacturing end was not an improvment at all.

[completelyhis]

The reason I stressed the UPB phase coupling issue - and I absolutely agree with you on it - is the number of people even here claiming that UPB is 100% reliable and doesn't need phase coupling. As I said, a few people shouting can drown out the facts.

Technocat,
I don't know if you were referring to me or not in regards ot the shouting about UPB being 100% reliable. If so...I didn't think I was shouting, just trying to balance the conversatoin between zwave and upb. I do have a phase coupler installed, leftover from when I bailled off the x10 ship. Maybe that's why I have 100% reliability. You speak as though anyone comitted to UPB is not only a minority, but unable to speak without bias.

Granted, you did give a relatively unbiased comparrision of the major platforms, save the unneeded slam on upb users:

This is such a problem that there are actually MORE phase couplers available for UPB than for X10 or Insteon. Three fans yelling that phase couplers aren't needed can tend to drown out the facts.

and the statement about it being the most expensive, even though I devoted several lines to the fact that I picked up a whole bucket of upb switches at $35 each (similar to zwave).

I don't do enough market research to be able to say whether zwave or upb (or any other) is the demonstrably dominant platform. I know that despite the fact that HS seems to have a vested interest in Zwave, there still seem to be more than a few (yelling) upb users on this board, let alone "in the rest of the world."


I'm not trying to start something and be all confrontational/trash talking, Just trying clear the air and offer balance. I may be reading more into some of your statements than I should. If so, I sincerely appologize.

Ian