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    Track furnace on time

    Nothing to do with a thermostat per se.
    I want to track furnace on time a bit more accurately than watching the thermostat temperature vs the setpoint as I do it now. The idea is to estimate fuel usage/supply. The current method doesn't give a true picture as the stat turns on and off the burner it seems based on heating rate.
    I have a RCX X10 thermostat connected to a gas furnace and was thinking of interfacing a DS10 in some fashion to the gas valve solenoid,or perhaps directly to the stat heating output. Before I go breaking into the wiring to install a relay, I thought I'd ask if anyone has done something similar, and if so, how.
    Real courage is not securing your Wi-Fi network.

    #2
    I installed two 24vac relays, one for cool and one for heat, near my RCS X10 'stat base unit to sense on/off status and it works great. Just remember that you'll need to get a 24v common line to your relay(s).
    Best regards,
    -Mark-

    If you're not out on the edge, you're taking up too much room!
    Interested in 3D maps? Check out my company site: Solid Terrain Modeling

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      #3
      When I thought a little more, I came to the conclusion that might be the way to go.
      Further, there are three relays on the TXB16 control board I don't use in my application. Now, I'm thinking "modify the board" to parallel one of these (W2) with the heating output relay (W1). In this way, I can wire the DS10 directly to the controller and avoid the extra load on the HVAC transformer an external relay would present.
      I'll take pictures if I do this.
      Real courage is not securing your Wi-Fi network.

      Comment


        #4
        I would be careful of paralleling the relays on the board as they my be driven directly form the microcontroller. Applying a second relay coil load could damage the micro and thereby trashing your TX16B.

        However, the additional milliamp load of a second relay coil on the FAU transformer would be imperceptable and, in my opinion, is the best way to go.
        Best regards,
        -Mark-

        If you're not out on the edge, you're taking up too much room!
        Interested in 3D maps? Check out my company site: Solid Terrain Modeling

        Comment


          #5
          Greg,
          I'd be interest in seeing this as I too thought about tracting actual heat cycles. I was thinkng on wiring something to the furance relay - perhaps an opto-coupler to a ds10...
          HS3PRO 3.0.0.500 as a Fire Daemon service, Windows 2016 Server Std Intel Core i5 PC HTPC Slim SFF 4GB, 120GB SSD drive, WLG800, RFXCom, TI103,NetCam, UltraNetcam3, BLBackup, CurrentCost 3P Rain8Net, MCsSprinker, HSTouch, Ademco Security plugin/AD2USB, JowiHue, various Oregon Scientific temp/humidity sensors, Z-Net, Zsmoke, Aeron Labs micro switches, Amazon Echo Dots, WS+, WD+ ... on and on.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by mfisher View Post
            I would be careful of paralleling the relays on the board as they my be driven directly form the microcontroller. Applying a second relay coil load could damage the micro and thereby trashing your TX16B.

            However, the additional milliamp load of a second relay coil on the FAU transformer would be imperceptable and, in my opinion, is the best way to go.
            There's a buffer between the controller and the relays.
            It's a ULN2003A which is a darlington transistor array containing seven circuits. Even if the status led is driven from one of these, there'll be one spare which is perfect.

            Just having had a quick look at things, there are two options not requiring any additional components.

            1. Parallel the buffer inputs and use the seventh to drive a relay connected to the DS10 input. May even be possible to wire the DS10 directly to the buffer output which would preserve the original functions of the TXB16.

            2. Parallel two relays to the Heat1 output driver. The relays are Omron G5V-1 12V with a coil current of 12.5mA. The driver will handle this easily.

            I'm considering option two as the better choice, but it'll likely be toward next weekend before I get at this.
            Real courage is not securing your Wi-Fi network.

            Comment


              #7
              I did forget that there's a ULN driver for the relays - doubling up the Omron relays on the driver will work just fine.

              At one time I had considered respinning the PIC firmware for my TX15b to include reporting the calls for heat and cool, but got distracted with some other projects...
              Best regards,
              -Mark-

              If you're not out on the edge, you're taking up too much room!
              Interested in 3D maps? Check out my company site: Solid Terrain Modeling

              Comment


                #8
                It would be interesting to track actual runtime in hour/minutes. Taking it one or two steps further, caculate the total heat time/day, per month and even per heating season...
                I suppose you could use ultralog to track runtime then do some math on the value. I'm not sure based on runtime, you could actually calculate the amount of gas you are consuming though perhaps the manufacture of your furnace can provide some numbers in cubic meters consumed, then all you need to do is calculate based on your current rate.... ah, the possibilities are endless.

                Robert
                HS3PRO 3.0.0.500 as a Fire Daemon service, Windows 2016 Server Std Intel Core i5 PC HTPC Slim SFF 4GB, 120GB SSD drive, WLG800, RFXCom, TI103,NetCam, UltraNetcam3, BLBackup, CurrentCost 3P Rain8Net, MCsSprinker, HSTouch, Ademco Security plugin/AD2USB, JowiHue, various Oregon Scientific temp/humidity sensors, Z-Net, Zsmoke, Aeron Labs micro switches, Amazon Echo Dots, WS+, WD+ ... on and on.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by langenet View Post
                  It would be interesting to track actual runtime in hour/minutes. Taking it one or two steps further, caculate the total heat time/day, per month and even per heating season...
                  I suppose you could use ultralog to track runtime then do some math on the value. I'm not sure based on runtime, you could actually calculate the amount of gas you are consuming though perhaps the manufacture of your furnace can provide some numbers in cubic meters consumed, then all you need to do is calculate based on your current rate.... ah, the possibilities are endless.

                  Robert
                  I've been tracking on time via a device updated once per minute for a couple of years now. I use a calculation, updated each year after a fillup to determine usage. It isn't perfect, but it's pretty close and gets better each year as I collect satistics. Watching the actual output will improve the data over estimating based on setpoint vs temperature.
                  Real courage is not securing your Wi-Fi network.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    This may sound a stupid question, but is it not possible to interface to your gas meter?
                    I have a Shlumberger R5 gas meter which has a pulsed output, i.e. a reed relay closes on every 1ft3. I've got this connected to a DS10a and HS counting the pulses. It doesn't get more accurate than this.

                    I also found out that (on my boiler) you don't need to add in additional relays to monitor the state of the pump or gas valve etc. Just stick a DS10A reed switch on top of the appropriate relay case on the boiler PCB and the relay coil generates enough magnetic field to pull in the DS10 as well.

                    This works fine as long as the PCB relays aren't too close together.

                    Andy

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I have modified a DS10A and added a circuit that detects 24V. I have 3 of them on each HVAC unit. A script stores the data in MySQL. I use chardirector and asp to plot the results. www.chezmurphy.net -> hvac activity.
                      Attached Files
                      HS3 Pro Edition 3.0.0.435 (Windows 10 vmware)
                      BLOccupied:,UltraNetCam3:,weatherXML:,RFXCOM:,Current Cost 3P:,UltraGCIR3:
                      DMMQTT:,Kodi:,Z-Wave:,BLRadar:,EasyTrigger:,MySensors:,BLBackup:

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I use an x10 powerflash module connected to the "Humidifier" terminals on the furnace controller board. This tells homeseer when the burner is ON.
                        I also have a CR3110 current sensor on the furnace fan motor to tell homeseer when the fan is ON.

                        I use a script to record each ON/OFF cycle to a file. I then use an automated excel spreadsheet to analyze the data and graph it as shown below. Go to http://board.homeseer.com/showpost.p...52&postcount=1 for additional information about how much I saved this year compared to last year.

                        Steve Q
                        Attached Files
                        HomeSeer Version: HS3 Pro Edition 3.0.0.368, Operating System: Microsoft Windows 10 - Home, Number of Devices: 373, Number of Events: 666, Enabled Plug-Ins
                        2.0.83.0: BLRF, 2.0.10.0: BLUSBUIRT, 3.0.0.75: HSTouch Server, 3.0.0.58: mcsXap, 3.0.0.11: NetCAM, 3.0.0.36: X10, 3.0.1.25: Z-Wave,Alexa,HomeKit

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by TechnoJunkie View Post
                          This may sound a stupid question, but is it not possible to interface to your gas meter?
                          I have a Shlumberger R5 gas meter which has a pulsed output, i.e. a reed relay closes on every 1ft3. I've got this connected to a DS10a and HS counting the pulses. It doesn't get more accurate than this.

                          I also found out that (on my boiler) you don't need to add in additional relays to monitor the state of the pump or gas valve etc. Just stick a DS10A reed switch on top of the appropriate relay case on the boiler PCB and the relay coil generates enough magnetic field to pull in the DS10 as well.

                          This works fine as long as the PCB relays aren't too close together.

                          Andy
                          I live in the boonies. We have a tank in the back yard which gets filled in the spring. No gas meter, except on the delivery truck.
                          Real courage is not securing your Wi-Fi network.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Steve Q View Post
                            I use an x10 powerflash module connected to the "Humidifier" terminals on the furnace controller board. This tells homeseer when the burner is ON.
                            I also have a CR3110 current sensor on the furnace fan motor to tell homeseer when the fan is ON.

                            Steve Q
                            No controller board. It's just a propane furnace with no humidifier option, nor any other options for that matter. Probably old, it was in the house when i bought it 20 years ago. There is a schematic inside, but I can barely read it.
                            I'd thought of the DS10 on the relay trick, and may try it yet, but the direct connection to the TXB16 keeps me out of the furnace, and it'll be there even if I do replace the furnace.


                            Thanks all though for the ideas. The forum is working!
                            Real courage is not securing your Wi-Fi network.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              As it turned out the TXB-16 controller mod turned out to be much simpler than I expected, and doesn't sacrifice any existing function of the controller.
                              The relay is a single pole, double throw with the NC (Normally Closed) contact unused. All that was necessary was to solder the leads of the DS-10 to the unused contact (pin 1) and to the common terminal (pin 5 or 6) of K1 (heating output). The DS10 also fits nicely into the controller enclosure.

                              When the TXB16 calls for heat, the contact opens causing the DS10 to report "Alert". When heating is off, the contact closes.
                              I've tested and this works perfectly. Now, the task of re-writing all my HVAC scripts.

                              All of the relays on the board are similarly arranged, so any of the controllers functions could be monitored in a similar fashion by connecting additional DS-10s to the required relay.
                              Attached Files
                              Real courage is not securing your Wi-Fi network.

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