Bath/tub control via homeseer

[Raptor]

Hi Everyone,

Later this year we are planning to remodel our master bath suite.

What i would like todo is to be able to have user presets that control things like temprature, and level of water.

So i might say i want the water XX degrees for me with a 75% fill for me and YY degrees with a 90% fill for the wife (she has less displacment shall we say ).

I'm guessing i could do this is i had a temp probe for the water then 2 adjustable flow valves but ive not really found anything.

Does anyone have any ideas here?

Thanks

Raptor

[zimmer62]

I have a friend, who knows a guy who's doing something like this...

His is a bit more DIY, as he's doing a PIC competition, and is trying to keep the cost way down.

Here's the page for that.
http://www.morse-code.com/id155.htm

Here are some pics of his custom valves he's made.
http://www.morse-code.com/id168.htm

I'm sure this could get very crazy if you wanted it to. I've always had this idea in the back of my head to do the same thing for the temperature, and could never understand why it's that hard of a concept.

If you want to do it right it probably would make sense to have a unit that is failsafe then attach that to homeseer. I'm sure your wife would be pissed if she couldn't take a bath because your server hard drive crashed

I wonder if Brent would be interested in working on making his project homeseer compatible with serial or IP communication.

His price limit for the project was $400 I think, I'm pretty sure I'd be interested at that point.

[Raptor]

thats a pretty neat peice of kit he has there!


The concept of the bath filler is fairly simple, its all in the implemention.

wonder if you could use a rain8 controller to handle the valves.

pretty much anything with an analong output could be used to handle the valves and you could maybe leave the old taps still working if it was plummed in series (fail safe).

then some smart programming in homeseer would say if temp less than XX then Hot valve open more. etc...

Raptor

[zimmer62]

wonder if you could use a rain8 controller to handle the valves.

I think the rain8 can only control valves open or closed.

pretty much anything with an analong output could be used to handle the valves and you could maybe leave the old taps still working if it was plummed in series (fail safe).

I like that idea for failsafe allowing you to use the water. I think you need some sort of fail safe or two for turning off the water too, maybe one electrically if the water level is too high, and another that can be done by a human if all else fails.. What if the power went off while those valves were open? quick shut them off... I can't... the powers out... oh my gosh. we have a flood.. I guess you picked a bad time to have a bath eh?..

hahaha... just thinking.

[Raptor]

I like that idea for failsafe allowing you to use the water. I think you need some sort of fail safe or two for turning off the water too, maybe one electrically if the water level is too high, and another that can be done by a human if all else fails.. What if the power went off while those valves were open? quick shut them off... I can't... the powers out... oh my gosh. we have a flood.. I guess you picked a bad time to have a bath eh?..

Very good point a master shut off is also needed. I'm thinking a physical water off valve that is manually operated.

I think the rain8 can only control valves open or closed.

True, anyhitng that has an analog output could be made to control a steppermotor valve, i suppose it matters if you want to have homeseer just tell the batht o fill or accually control the fill.

This should be doable

Raptor

[Steve Q]

I have been thinking about a shower controller but maybe some of the following could apply to your bath tub application:

• Install solenoids (from an old washing machine) on the Hot and Cold supply lines to the shower controller valve. The controller valve automatically controls the water temperature to the preset temperature.
• Use an X10 or XAP controlled relay to turn on the solenoids (open them) for a fixed period of 4-5 minutes.
• Turn off the water
• Wait 1-2 minutes
• Turn water back ON for 1 minute
• Turn OFF water

My idea is to limit shower time to 4-5 minutes to conserve water and water heating costs. (Really needed for teenagers). The 2 minute warning would allow a final soap-up then rinse.

I think this approach could also work for a bathtub. 3 minute fill for him, 4 minute fill for her. And it would have the added benefit of no overflows.
If the power goes out, the water stops automatically.

Steve Q

[Raptor]

I have been thinking about a shower controller but maybe some of the following could apply to your bath tub application:

• Install solenoids (from an old washing machine) on the Hot and Cold supply lines to the shower controller valve. The controller valve automatically controls the water temperature to the preset temperature.
• Use an X10 or XAP controlled relay to turn on the solenoids (open them) for a fixed period of 4-5 minutes.
• Turn off the water
• Wait 1-2 minutes
• Turn water back ON for 1 minute
• Turn OFF water

My idea is to limit shower time to 4-5 minutes to conserve water and water heating costs. (Really needed for teenagers). The 2 minute warning would allow a final soap-up then rinse.

I think this approach could also work for a bathtub. 3 minute fill for him, 4 minute fill for her. And it would have the added benefit of no overflows.
If the power goes out, the water stops automatically.

Steve Q

This was my original idea as the implementation is much easier, however in our case, the hot/cold mix changes over time due to the size of the water tank (we have a 40gal water heater and an 80gal bathtub... it JUST works with the correct mix of hot/cold and our displacment....)

Do you know where i could get some of these solenoids?

Does a washing machine have a mixer valve for the hot/cold water or does it just heat its own?

Raptor

[Steve Q]

Raptor,

The newer temperature controlled mixing valves deliver the water at the right temperature regardless of the supply temperature or pressure. These valves are more expensive than your normal valve but they are really worth it. Once you set them you never have to change them. A seperate valve controls the water volume/ON/OFF. Go to http://www.groheamerica.com/t/25_3845.html

The water control solenoids are available as replacement parts for a washing machine (dual valve) or a dishwasher (single valve). Try a google search.

Steve Q

[Raptor]

Raptor,

The newer temperature controlled mixing valves deliver the water at the right temperature regardless of the supply temperature or pressure. These valves are more expensive than your normal valve but they are really worth it. Once you set them you never have to change them. A seperate valve controls the water volume/ON/OFF. Go to http://www.groheamerica.com/t/25_3845.html

The water control solenoids are available as replacement parts for a washing machine (dual valve) or a dishwasher (single valve). Try a google search.

Steve Q

Wow thats awesome, never even knew they existed... thats what we need!

I'll do some more googleing now

raptor

[Michael McSharry]

The temperature controlled valves are like the Model T. You can have any color you like s long as it is black. I ended up setting mine at an uncontrolled temperature setting and st the shower handle the old fashoned way. My wife likes it hotter so one temperature just did not hack it. For a simple automation approach it is a good idea.

[Steve Q]

The temperature controlled valves are like the Model T. You can have any color you like s long as it is black. I ended up setting mine at an uncontrolled temperature setting and st the shower handle the old fashoned way. My wife likes it hotter so one temperature just did not hack it. For a simple automation approach it is a good idea.

Michael,

My valve is fully adjustable. When you install it you adjust the temperature to prevent scalding and to set your preferred temperature. The knob has a stop postion at that point. But you can still adjust it to a cooler temperature by just turning it, or you can adjust it to a higher temperature by pulling the handle out to allow it to bypass the stop postition. My wife likes the temperature slightly cooler so she always turns the valve slightly cooler. I always set it to the stop position. Otherwise it never changes. If you turn the shower ON before you get in, it will always be at the right temperature. These valves are not just a simple blending valve, they are truly temperature sensing and will adjust the flow of hot and cold water to achieve the desired temperature.

Steve Q

[Rupp]

Steve,
How expensive are these valves?

[Steve Q]

I couldn't find the invoice but I found my materials list. The valve was $151 and the trim (plate and handle) was $127. I installed it in 2002.
Not cheap!! I have the Grohe - Taron 1/2" valve. This valve controls the shower head, hand held shower, and 2 body sprays. There are 3 additional shutoff valves. (1 for the shower, 1 for the hand held shower, and 1 for the body sprays). I spent a lot of time designing the the shower because there are lots of trade offs involving water volumes, pressures etc. A 3/4" valve with 3 body sprays and a rain shower will use 50 gallons of hot water in something like 10 minutes! Not very eco-friendly!

Steve Q

[Raptor]

Ok I got to thinking and this is my idea.

Please see the images attached.

Basically you can buy a thermostat based mixing valve.

We have 2 choices at this point:

1. Preset the temprature on the vavle and forget about it.
2. Put a servo control on the valve with a safety limiter(to prevent the tub filling with really hot water)

You could then control the on/off valve with whatever you like (x10 z-wave etc) and the server via a serial to servo control (would need a plugin but i think that sould be easy).

once this is in you could handle the fill level by time (assuing that the pressure is constant).

parts seem to cost 165usd from www.pexsupply.com(found them via google) not including the servos, servo controllers and the on/off valve actuator. Obviously you would need to be really careful with electricity around water so take care.

I would also like to point out this is only a theroy, i have no idea if this would work so try at your own risk.

Any comments/modifications?

Do you think it might work?

Raptor

[Steve Q]

I don't quite understand the connection between your original taps and the ON/OFF valve. And what is the purpose of the backflow valve? If this is a new installation, it would be much easier to simply add a 2nd tub spout. With your design, you won't know if the water is manually ON or being controlled by the computer, or a combination of both. It could be very confusing!

Steve Q