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Bulbs again - which ones work with z-wave & x-10

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    Bulbs again - which ones work with z-wave & x-10

    Went to Sam's yesterday to buy a case of floods for my indoor cans. I could only find a section of CFLs and LEDs. I stopped a stocker and asked where the regular blubs were located. He said they stopped carrying them. I was on a short time line, so didn't have time to see what was offered and left the store empty handed.

    I just installed my first z-wave devices, the rest of the house is x-10. I'm doing a search here for information on which dimming bulbs might work, but has anyone done the research or have a guide?

    Thanks,
    Barry

    #2
    The long and the short is that CFL's generally won't play well with either X-10 nor Z-Wave dimmers. The reason is that the dimmers require a trickle current through the bulb to supply power to the switch, which often causes the CFL's to flicker or in some cases get rather alarmingly hot, or both.

    You have two options:
    1. Go with CFL's and change out all your dimmers with relay switches (you'll need a neutral in the switch box in each case).
    2. Find a supplier who still carries incandescents and stock up.

    I've gone both routes. I have a stockpile of incandescents for the house, and in the new garage I've gone completely fluorescent (relay).
    Hopefully, if I live long enough and my supply runs out, some future lighting option might work with the electronic dimmers. Otherwise, it will be necessary to move or rewire most of the house.
    Real courage is not securing your Wi-Fi network.

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      #3
      I have non dimmable ones and also dimmable ones that work with my z-wave devices. Let me check the model numbers for you, and I will post them.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by sonypoolplr View Post
        I have non dimmable ones and also dimmable ones that work with my z-wave devices. Let me check the model numbers for you, and I will post them.
        Thanks, that would be helpful.

        Wadenut, sounds like I need to do some shopping soon. I don't want to give up my dimmers. When we remodeled about 12 years ago, I did run neutrals to all the switch boxes. But I'm not sure I want to buy more swtiches until there is something that will work with the new technologies.

        Just looked at Sam's online and see these http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/nav...=5&item=362425 Has anyone tried these with X-10 or z-wave dimmable switches?

        Barry
        Last edited by lhfarm; June 20, 2009, 07:47 AM. Reason: more info

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          #5
          Originally posted by Wadenut View Post
          The long and the short is that CFL's generally won't play well with either X-10 nor Z-Wave dimmers. The reason is that the dimmers require a trickle current through the bulb to supply power to the switch, which often causes the CFL's to flicker or in some cases get rather alarmingly hot, or both.

          You have two options:
          1. Go with CFL's and change out all your dimmers with relay switches (you'll need a neutral in the switch box in each case).
          2. Find a supplier who still carries incandescents and stock up.

          I've gone both routes. I have a stockpile of incandescents for the house, and in the new garage I've gone completely fluorescent (relay).
          Hopefully, if I live long enough and my supply runs out, some future lighting option might work with the electronic dimmers. Otherwise, it will be necessary to move or rewire most of the house.
          Has anyone tried putting a resistor in parallel with these bulbs to overcome the problem your talking about? The could create the trickle charge you are talking about.
          HS3 Pro Edition 3.0.0.435 (Windows Server 8.1 on ESXi box)

          Plug-Ins Enabled:
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            #6
            Originally posted by lhfarm View Post
            Thanks, that would be helpful.

            Wadenut, sounds like I need to do some shopping soon. I don't want to give up my dimmers. When we remodeled about 12 years ago, I did run neutrals to all the switch boxes. But I'm not sure I want to buy more swtiches until there is something that will work with the new technologies.

            Just looked at Sam's online and see these http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/nav...=5&item=362425 Has anyone tried these with X-10 or z-wave dimmable switches?

            Barry
            See post 12 here
            http://board.homeseer.com/showthread.php?t=132376
            Real courage is not securing your Wi-Fi network.

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              #7
              Originally posted by wpiman View Post
              Has anyone tried putting a resistor in parallel with these bulbs to overcome the problem your talking about? The could create the trickle charge you are talking about.
              It's a good thought, and probably might work in theory but, this has been discussed previously and dismissed as a bad idea.
              Having an incandescent bulb in the circuit is another option, but sort of defeats the purpose of using CFL's in the first place, and as there's still voltage on the CFL, it still draws current when "off".

              I don't know the exact current a switch draws when off, and it would depend on the switch model as well as whether or not the switch is receiving or transmitting. For arguments sake let's say it's a constant 100mA at 120V. You'd need a 1200 ohm resistor with a rating of 12 Watts. It would be quite large and dissipate a fair amount of heat in the box.

              Not to be at all insulting, I doubt any insurance company would pay out if a resistor in the switch box was found to be the cause of the house fire.

              Best to bite the bullet, abandon the dimmers and go with relay switches... or stock up.
              Real courage is not securing your Wi-Fi network.

              Comment


                #8
                So it seems that at least some CFL bulbs will work. That gives me some hope that the "fix" is in the hands of the lamp manufacturers. I'm getting ready to start some remodeling and I'm also starting to replace failing X-10 switches with z-wave dimmable switches. However, I'm wondering if it would be smarter to wait to see if any switch makers come up with a new design to work with the new breed of bulb.

                Is that even a possibility? Clearly the old style bulbs are being phased out (faster than I had assumed based on Sam's actions), so you would think someone is working on this.

                Barry

                Comment


                  #9
                  It's definitely possible. Unfortunately, electronic dimmers remain a bit of a niche market so it's likely not a high priority.
                  Personally, I think LED's hold more promise then CFL's from our point of view and they're improving in brilliance all the time. It's just a matter of time, then I'd dare say some other technology will come along and start the cycle all over again.
                  Real courage is not securing your Wi-Fi network.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Are you just not able to get any normal bulbs or have the shops stopped selling them? Have you tried the OSRAM range of energy saving halogens?

                    I have a few and they work quite well...they have a halogen lamp inside the glass and run approx 28w to replace a 40w bulb. Looks like they circumvent any new regulations about incandescent lamps...by just drawing a little less than a normal bulb.

                    They dim like any other lamp of course as have no transformer/ballast..

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Here's an interesting, albeit long, article on the subject.
                      http://sound.westhost.com/articles/incandescent.htm

                      We all should pay particular attention to the section on HA and dimmers in general.

                      and on the brighter side (no pun intended)
                      http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-6162567-7.html
                      Last edited by Wadenut; June 20, 2009, 05:49 PM.
                      Real courage is not securing your Wi-Fi network.

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                        #12
                        I looked and I use the GE indoor flood lights in my recessed lights. I have the 65 watt ones with a zwave dimmer. I got them at Lowes, Walmart also has them. There are two types, make sure the box says for use with dimmers.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by sonypoolplr View Post
                          I looked and I use the GE indoor flood lights in my recessed lights. I have the 65 watt ones with a zwave dimmer. I got them at Lowes, Walmart also has them. There are two types, make sure the box says for use with dimmers.
                          Thanks! I'll give them a try.
                          Barry

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Wadenut View Post
                            It's a good thought, and probably might work in theory but, this has been discussed previously and dismissed as a bad idea.
                            Having an incandescent bulb in the circuit is another option, but sort of defeats the purpose of using CFL's in the first place, and as there's still voltage on the CFL, it still draws current when "off".

                            I don't know the exact current a switch draws when off, and it would depend on the switch model as well as whether or not the switch is receiving or transmitting. For arguments sake let's say it's a constant 100mA at 120V. You'd need a 1200 ohm resistor with a rating of 12 Watts. It would be quite large and dissipate a fair amount of heat in the box.

                            Not to be at all insulting, I doubt any insurance company would pay out if a resistor in the switch box was found to be the cause of the house fire.

                            Best to bite the bullet, abandon the dimmers and go with relay switches... or stock up.
                            Oh man; I was hoping a trickle charge would mean a 1 megaohm or something in that range. 12 watts is the draw of the bulb itself.

                            I guess if you had a 20 bulb chandelier; then making one an incandescent would be sufficient.

                            Has anyone taken an ohm meter to a CFL to see if there is any resistive load? This might explain why some work and others to not.
                            HS3 Pro Edition 3.0.0.435 (Windows Server 8.1 on ESXi box)

                            Plug-Ins Enabled:
                            Z-Wave:,RaspberryIO:,AirplaySpeak:,Ecobee:,
                            weatherXML:,JowiHue:,APCUPSD:,PHLocation:,Chromecast:,EasyTr igger:

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                              #15
                              I'm afraid the only thing an ohmeter will see is the bridge rectifier and electrolytic capacitor which convert AC to DC for the rest of the circuitry.
                              The tube will flicker because the cap is still charging with the switch off.
                              Real courage is not securing your Wi-Fi network.

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