My Win2k8 adventure...looking for some incite from YOUR experiences

[Pete]

My thoughts for newest HS server box were using W2K8 R2 with 2 smaller SATA drives in a RAID1 array. Very mini utilizing a mini ATX board, case and notebook SATA drives (still keeping storage on a different device).

[jackpod]

I've dumped my older power hungry servers and am now using Dell poweredge 860's (3 of them). They can be had for between $350 and $450 each on ebay, nice 1u's 8 gigs of ram max and 2 internal sata/sas drives. 2 have an intel x3220 2.4 quad core the other is a 2.8 dual core celeron 336 (all x64 chips). I cut my power consumption from 1250 watts to 360 watts, not to mention the ambient temp in the server room by 10+ degrees so the air conditioner runs a lot less. I am not currently running HS on them but have a vmware ESXi 3.5 server (with 8 VMs), a Hyper V server (still just a dev machine) and the dual core is running windows storage server 2008 Enterprise (has 7.5tb raid 5 sata storage) They run barely warm to the touch

[Pete]

Sounds like a great idea Jack relating to footprint and energy savings. I don't use a conventional style rack but would benefit from maybe a 1/2 height one. Currently utilizing a "restaurant" style wire mesh rack and do have one 1 U server stacked on the highest shelf (never really touch it but do use it). Sounds like you are happy with 2008 eh?

[drozwood90]

Are you using W2k8, or W2k8 R2? (big difference, w2k8 are based on the vista core, while r2 are based on w7)

Im running R2, both as a HyperV server, and Storage 3TB (Raid5) array.
HS is installed on the system volume (2x in raid1) I cant say that i have noticed the drives spinning down.

It is Win2k8, not R2. I only have a 32bit system. I went under Advanced Power settings and told it to spin the hard drives down. I assumed, as in the past, the OS drive wouldn't spin down as the OS is always accessing it (also HS is accessing it).

[Pete]

Thinking my new HSPro setup will be small enough to just hang on the wood panel next to the media panel. Most likely will still run 2003 or maybe 2008. I currently have set up same case with Raid1 for CarPC.

http://www.mini-box.com/M350-univers...-itx-enclosure

[drozwood90]

So relating to the "spin down" and HS running on 2008. Do you personally like the feature or does it cause a disadvantage relating to timing of events? You've proven that it still writes the time every 5 minutes. What about TTS? Is there a lag in response or is it the same? When you are on another computer with the web browser open to HS are you seeing good responses to manually run events?

I like the feature. When ALL my drives are down, the power difference is measurable (depending on processor level, 5-15W on the power meter).

TTS...I haven't been able to get that running yet. The speaker client crashes. I'm guessing that it has to do with the lack of media support (default install). I haven't had a chance to install WMPlayer or any of the supporting "stuff" as I'm still programming up the rest of my "normal" events.

As for firing off events, you do NOT notice the difference. IF anything, I see an improvement in execution time. On Win2k3, if I were to say dump an entire set of DVDS (remember 33-38Meg/s), just to tie up the system, I would notice a slight lag in event execution. With the way the system is setup right now, I can sustain 55-58Meg/s AND do not notice ANY lag. I will group that saying with, I only have maybe 1/2 of my events in HS right now...so...it's not a totally fair comparison. PLUS I am now running 2.4.0.11, instead of 2.1.xx.xx, or 2.2.xx.xx

"When you are on another computer with the web browser open to HS are you seeing good responses to manually run events?"

As long as the drives are spun up, I actually "feel" like the system is responding fater then before. If I try to surf the page locally to the machine, it runs slowly. Pegs the processor, etc. All the "bad" stuff, speed-wise. However, surf the same page on another PC and if the drives are spun down, you will have to wait 5-10 seconds. Then after that all accesses (so long as it is under the 15 minute "wake" period) will "feel" lightning fast.

--Dan

[jackpod]

Sounds like a great idea Jack relating to footprint and energy savings. I don't use a conventional style rack but would benefit from maybe a 1/2 height one. Currently utilizing a "restaurant" style wire mesh rack and do have one 1 U server stacked on the highest shelf (never really touch it but do use it). Sounds like you are happy with 2008 eh?

I am currently only using 2008 for the storage server and the Hyper-V server. The storage server natively supports Iscsi targets (amonst other things like SIS, WSUS and others) and the Hyper-v server supports more hardware than VMWare because it is a windows core altho has no GUI, just a dos box but I have been able to get my Silicon Image Sata controllers to work including the gui management tool. 2008 has a bigger footprint/resource requirement but everything microsoft is putting out now is x64. The Hyper-v bare metal hypervisor is very small but the tools to manage it (System Center Virtual Machine Manager) is huge. All my vm guests are still 2k3 (x86 and x64)

[drozwood90]

I've dumped my older power hungry servers and am now using Dell poweredge 860's (3 of them). They can be had for between $350 and $450 each on ebay, nice 1u's 8 gigs of ram max and 2 internal sata/sas drives. 2 have an intel x3220 2.4 quad core the other is a 2.8 dual core celeron 336 (all x64 chips). I cut my power consumption from 1250 watts to 360 watts, not to mention the ambient temp in the server room by 10+ degrees so the air conditioner runs a lot less. I am not currently running HS on them but have a vmware ESXi 3.5 server (with 8 VMs), a Hyper V server (still just a dev machine) and the dual core is running windows storage server 2008 Enterprise (has 7.5tb raid 5 sata storage) They run barely warm to the touch

Jack, the only issue I have is it's not just a $350-450 upgrade. I would guess I need to tack on another $100. I have 2 ISA serial port expander cards I use. So, I bought a modern mobo that still supported ISA. I also use I think 3 or 4 PCI cards. Assuming I change out for a PCI Serial port expander card, I have:
1x serial expander - new
1xserial / parallel expander (probably get rid of this as I would use the above)
1x 4 channel video card input for security cameras
1x 4 hub - usb 2.0 firewire card (each port is it's own hub, so I can use mixed periferals and not worry about the USB 1.0-1.1 stuff making my 2.0 stuff slow down)

Can a 1U unit hold that many cards?

How do you like storage server? I have access to a demo of that, but can't try it out (it requires a 64bit processor).

I think it would be nice to get something like that, but it's really not in the budget right now. So, maybe I'll keep it in the back of my mind of a future upgrade. Get a used poweredge, instead or build a new one. Maybe a 2u or 4u would allow me to hold that many cards? I DO have the rack...and that WOULD give me more space on it (I have a mid-tower case for my server...and that's sitting on a shelf...).

I have also been tempted to put some of my fun $$ towards a 1u rackmount ethernet switch. I see the unmanaged are getting pretty decent in price. 24 port, 10/100/1000 for $150-200. It would be easier to use that for patching hte network cables, plus it simplifies my network (I don't have to tier things on multiple 8 port 10/100/1000 switches).

--Dan

[Pete]

TTS...I haven't been able to get that running yet. The speaker client crashes. I'm guessing that it has to do with the lack of media support (default install). I haven't had a chance to install WMPlayer or any of the supporting "stuff" as I'm still programming up the rest of my "normal" events.

On the Tversity 2003 server (originally had no audio card) used "virtual audio cable" and also did some tweaking to allow for WMP 11, Universal plug n play service, etc to run. ( I guess kind of making a bit like MS HS).

How does 2008 deal with media support?

So will you be letting the drives spin down or will you be circumventing this part for the root drive of the HS server?

Dan, I quit using legacy serial ports a while ago; never really having problems with USB to serial type devices initially then migrating over to 1 to many usb to serial external boxes. (but playing with VM last year had some issues with "virtual serial" ports).

[drozwood90]

I should mention, my server with all drives running is about 120W...

Which I think is a fair amount (looking at what other people have posted), especially for what I have in there. It is only a Celeron D 2.13 (I looked it up, I originally posted it was a 2.12, but it's a 2.13). I bought that for it's power savings. It is a bit pokier then what the mobo WOULD support, but it does everything it needs to support the specific purpose of what it was built for. Win2k3, serving out files over the network, recording video from the cameras, running HS.

When the whole system is idle...i.e. drives (except the OS drive), the processor is idle, It will sit close to (if memory serves me) ~89W. I have NOT tested the system with everything totally idle, running win2k8. THe power numbers I mentioned before were with the system's processor "pegging" to 100% (it just seems to do that every once in a while). I'll try to get a better handle on power later.

I know that just looking at the power rating numbers on my hard drives, ~35-50W is just the hard drives, so I assume I should be able to get my system down to 50W if all the drives can spin down. IF I can pull off that kind of a savings @ $0.125 / KWH:
50W/1000W/KW*24hr*30day=36KWH of savings*0.125=$4.50 / month in savings. SO, if I were to buy the extra ram, and do the ram drive, say my cost of $100 (if I bought software), ROUGHLY speaking I get ROI in 22.2months + I do not get to have to wait everytime the OS wants to spinup the drives. If I used the free software and upgraded my server, $72 for ram @ Newegg, 16 month ROI. My current setup also still has room to grow drive wise. Without adding any port multipliers to my SATA ports, I can still add 2 more drives. Assuming they are 2TB drives, at the rate the wife and I fill drives, we wouldn't have to add them for 1.5-2 years (assuming a logarithmic-ish growth pattern).

I guess I'm rambling again, but I think it's because there really is NOT a clear path that I have. I could just get a poweredge. but how much power would one of those use? How long is my ROI, esp. when this is doing it's thing.

And power being what it is, that's why I've been trying to find a rack mount switch, that can turn it's ports off, at a reasonable price (as I stated, I've seen some 24 port 10/100/1000 switches, rackmount, for $150-200, so maybe 200-250 for a "green" version?). For me, It's not about "saving" it's about being smart with where my $$ is going. If I can save $10/mo. That's one extra dinner I can take the wife out to. At least that's how I view it.

--Dan

[drozwood90]

How does 2008 deal with media support?

Well, everything audio related is totally disabled. Kind of how Win2k3 is...but on steroids. Beyond that, there appears to be some "package" called Desktop Experience. I'm not sure if I need that or not. I'm hoping it's the same as with Win2k3. Just install a few patches to allow WMP11 install, then away I go.

So will you be letting the drives spin down or will you be circumventing this part for the root drive of the HS server?

As I can't seem to "easily" get software to keep that one drive running, and I do not want the other drives to just spin for no reason, I think I will save up some cash and put it towards more memory, so I can run the ram drive. I might try the ram drive with what I have in there. If I do not see a performance decrease, I might just stay with what I have (although I know that Win2k8 appears to put everything possible into ram, so I'm worried I'll get a performance hit to the entire server). At that point, I need to weigh out, more ram, or a SSD (then the OS can command it to sleep, but it will still be "instant" on). There are many ways to skin this cat, but what is my ROI, and how much do I have to invest up front (wife and I are on a budget for hobby stuff).

Dan, I quit using legacy serial ports a while ago; never really having problems with USB to serial type devices initially then migrating over to 1 to many usb to serial external boxes. (but playing with VM last year had some issues with "virtual serial" ports).

I like the legacy, as I picked up 24 ports for $22 off ebay. At the time, I was unhappy with ALL USB to serial, except one brand, which would have cost me the cost of USB hubs and the device ($15 each). So, I couldn't justifiy the cost. Of course, hindsite IS 20/20! IF I do start to virtualize my servers, I would like to run Hyper-V...as Jack said support. One reason I've shied away from ESXi...that and it ALSO requires x64 processors.


-- Side note, I can't get DVD Profiler to run. Keeps crashing. I tried the latest version, that is WIN7 capable. It now at least starts to load. Then it crashes. No compatibility modes help. Oh well. I'll have to put it on a workstation around the house.

-- Side note two, with all this server migration stuff, I have not yet finished messing with my new Touchscreens (the ones on the Cocoontech board), nor have I gone much psat identifiying what the JTAG cable looks like and where I need to connect it, for those two routers.

[drozwood90]

Jack, neat case. I'm actually still using a DELL case from ~10 years ago. It has the BEST air flow pattern I've ever seen. It generally runs 10deg cooler then the previous server case I used, BUT this only has 2 fans (power supply and case fan). The previous server case had 7 fans. HUGE power savings right there. PLUS less wear and tear on the server components (temperature).

So, be cautious about that. Small is not necessarily better, unless it has been designed properly. I"ve liked a few of the Shuttle case designs.

--Dan

[Pete]

BTW - Happy Easter Dan to you and yours! There is a momentum starting to build here ....thinking of leaving to wash the car...might be better for me to get out of the way for a bit....

[jackpod]

Jack, the only issue I have is it's not just a $350-450 upgrade. I would guess I need to tack on another $100. I have 2 ISA serial port expander cards I use. So, I bought a modern mobo that still supported ISA. I also use I think 3 or 4 PCI cards. Assuming I change out for a PCI Serial port expander card, I have:
1x serial expander - new
1xserial / parallel expander (probably get rid of this as I would use the above)
1x 4 channel video card input for security cameras
1x 4 hub - usb 2.0 firewire card (each port is it's own hub, so I can use mixed periferals and not worry about the USB 1.0-1.1 stuff making my 2.0 stuff slow down)

Can a 1U unit hold that many cards?


How do you like storage server? I have access to a demo of that, but can't try it out (it requires a 64bit processor).

I think it would be nice to get something like that, but it's really not in the budget right now. So, maybe I'll keep it in the back of my mind of a future upgrade. Get a used poweredge, instead or build a new one. Maybe a 2u or 4u would allow me to hold that many cards? I DO have the rack...and that WOULD give me more space on it (I have a mid-tower case for my server...and that's sitting on a shelf...).

I have also been tempted to put some of my fun $$ towards a 1u rackmount ethernet switch. I see the unmanaged are getting pretty decent in price. 24 port, 10/100/1000 for $150-200. It would be easier to use that for patching hte network cables, plus it simplifies my network (I don't have to tier things on multiple 8 port 10/100/1000 switches).

--Dan

Dan, The 1U will only handle 2 cards. In the case of the 860 the riser comes as either one 8x PCI-e and one 4x PCI-e, the alternative is one 8x PCI-e and one PCI-X. I used to use the PCI serial cards, but now use 5 of the Quatech QSE100 Serial over IP devices (20 ports total) I am very happy with those

[jackpod]

Well, everything audio related is totally disabled. Kind of how Win2k3 is...but on steroids. Beyond that, there appears to be some "package" called Desktop Experience. I'm not sure if I need that or not. I'm hoping it's the same as with Win2k3. Just install a few patches to allow WMP11 install, then away I go.



As I can't seem to "easily" get software to keep that one drive running, and I do not want the other drives to just spin for no reason, I think I will save up some cash and put it towards more memory, so I can run the ram drive. I might try the ram drive with what I have in there. If I do not see a performance decrease, I might just stay with what I have (although I know that Win2k8 appears to put everything possible into ram, so I'm worried I'll get a performance hit to the entire server). At that point, I need to weigh out, more ram, or a SSD (then the OS can command it to sleep, but it will still be "instant" on). There are many ways to skin this cat, but what is my ROI, and how much do I have to invest up front (wife and I are on a budget for hobby stuff).




I like the legacy, as I picked up 24 ports for $22 off ebay. At the time, I was unhappy with ALL USB to serial, except one brand, which would have cost me the cost of USB hubs and the device ($15 each). So, I couldn't justifiy the cost. Of course, hindsite IS 20/20! IF I do start to virtualize my servers, I would like to run Hyper-V...as Jack said support. One reason I've shied away from ESXi...that and it ALSO requires x64 processors.


-- Side note, I can't get DVD Profiler to run. Keeps crashing. I tried the latest version, that is WIN7 capable. It now at least starts to load. Then it crashes. No compatibility modes help. Oh well. I'll have to put it on a workstation around the house.

-- Side note two, with all this server migration stuff, I have not yet finished messing with my new Touchscreens (the ones on the Cocoontech board), nor have I gone much psat identifiying what the JTAG cable looks like and where I need to connect it, for those two routers.

Dan, ESXi 4 requires 64bit with the virtual technology bit, but ESXi 3.5 will run on a 32 bit system (obviously only with 32bit guests)