UPB On/Off Command Signal Lost When PIM is Busy

[jbrogan]

The title of the thread may not explain it clearly, so here goes....

I have a HAI 38A00-2 (8 button controller) and each button i have tied to different events in my Homeseer Pro system. When i push button 6 on the HAI device, that triggers an event "outside floods on" which turns on about 7 different UBP switches which control floodlights around the entire house (via the HAI 38A00-1 PIM device.)

That works great. But... if I push button 5 on the 8 button controller *while* the 7 floodlight switches are receiving their commands to turn on, it seems that the HAI PIM device never hears that button 5 has been turned on so no event takes place when button 5 turns on.

If i let the 7 floodlight switches turn on and then push button 5, the event triggers fine.

Is there a trick to getting that signal back to the PIM that button 5 has turned on [at the same time] that it is busy turning on other devices?
I look in the log files and i do not see any sign that button 5 was detected as turning on. But if i wait for those 7 floodlights to finish turning on (the PIM is quiet after it turns them all on) then button 5 trigger on is logged and the event for button 5 works fine.

I have about 112 UPB devices in the house and the homeseer system works fine and everything seems fine except when that PIM is actively sending commands out to devices to turn on/off. IT seems that it can't hear during those busy periods.

Thanks in advance for your help

John

[nightwalker]

I can't say I've had the problem you do but you also have more devices than I do.

I also use an HAI pim and an HAI 8 button keypad in each room. What I've done is to use one command that sends a link that is picked up by each switch as opposed to sending individual commands to each switch.

For example I have a link that can be received by almost every switch I have to turn on if the alarm goes off. When HS sends out that link all switches go on at almost the exact same time, with only one command. It's a lot simpler and generates less traffic than sending a separate command to each switch.

[tenholde]

Why involve HS in this at all? Have the button send the link to all of the outside lights.

tenholde

[nightwalker]

It could all be done internally at the switches for sure but it's my preference to let HS manage things as opposed to having distributed control. When it works it's great but when a problem comes up it so much easier to track down a problem when you have only one place to start your search.

In John's circumstance it would work, unless he has more than one keypad that can send that same link. In that case unless I've missed something it's easier to keep the led indicators on all the HAI keypads in sync when you let HS manage it.

[Uncle Michael]

Somewhere I'm confused because I don't understand this discussion.

Although I use UPB and have been very impressed with its performance, I have not had a reason to make use of links extensively yet. (UBP is my migration path as my Compose switches need replacing or I need additional devices.)

So my questions are mostly to grow my understanding:
If you have a UPB link, and it's purpose is to turn on lights, then my understanding is that any switch programmed to respond to that link would turn on essentially simultaneously with all other switches also programmed to that link. I also think I understand that it matters not where the link signal originated, whether a switch, a keypad, HS or an HAI controller. Similarly, if you have a keypad that tracks the link, shouldn't its status lights reflect the link regardless of the origin as well?

Therefore, doesn't the use of links allow both independent execution and HS control? Why is this an either/or question?

[nightwalker]

You're not wrong in your thinking, it's just that UPB is flexible enough that there are many ways to do the same thing and that puts us into personal preference. I got out of the habit of having more than one point of control when I started using HomeSeer for lighting control as opposed to the Omni. The HAI panel likes to do and setup things it's own way and it just wasn't worth the effort of trying to keep it all straight. In my opinion of course.

Right now the only place I use direct control of a switch from a keypad is one location when the actual switch is not in a convenient place ti turn on the load but the keypad is.

[Uncle Michael]

Marty,
I understand. Thank you for the clarification.

I have a similar situation with HS and Stargate. In my case, I let SG execute most of the automated lighting commands, but HS issues some as well. So far, it's not been difficult to troubleshoot, but I also understand that the UPB system adds another layer with the PIM.

In the Compose setup a group of switches and keypads are set to a common HC/UC. Pressing a keypad button sends an X10 preset dim command, and the switches can be programmed to perform specific actions depending on the dim level they receive. Obviously, HS or SG can send the same preset dim and the keypads and switches respond the same as if it came from a button press. Sort of an X10-based 'link'.

I can see that converting to UPB links will be an opportunity for me to exercise flexible thinking. Just similar enough to feel familiar, but different enough to get me really confused. I'm looking forward to it.

[jbrogan]

Thanks for the great input on this topic. I do have three (3) of the 8 button keypads (one on each floor of the house) so i use HS to keep things in sync when a button is pressed. I prefer to let HS handle all the events and links on/off etc so for now i just wait for the main floodlights to turn on, then i hit the other buttons on the 8 button keypad to flip on other lights. I just have to wait about 30 seconds to do that.

[completelyhis]

John,

Have you tried adjusting the "number of transmissions" setting on the UPB config page? I have no idea if that would help or should be messed with, but I saw it there the other day and thought "hmmm?"

Also, have you tried increasing the transmission attempts setting in the advanced tab of the upstart configuration for that device? again, this is a setting I've never messed with before, but it may help.

Ultimately I think Nightwalker's approach makes the most sense - that's how I do things as well.

Ian

[drozwood90]

I can see that converting to UPB links will be an opportunity for me to exercise flexible thinking. Just similar enough to feel familiar, but different enough to get me really confused. I'm looking forward to it.

UM,

I typically have "sets" of lights on links. This way, if I intend for a script or something to "turn on" a group of lights, it doesn't matter how many lights there are.

My thinking is:
In the living room, there is a plug that has a UPB on it. However, we did not like where the lamp was. So, I attached a module to the same link. Then, we moved the lamp behind the couch.

My code did not have to change. I merely had to add the link to the UPB module.

Second reason, my builder put the garage outside light and the front door outside light on separate switches. I tied them together with a link so "both" go on / off at the same time. HS just picks up the link's execution and adjusts BOTH switch's status as needed. Then, by having HS execute ONLY the link, I ensure that all the switches that need, are turned on / off by HS. I think there is only one switch I operate without a link. The garbage disposal...it does it's own thing.

By using links, I also keep power line traffic down. I do NOT have the switches update status upon change. I only have them send links when "pressed". Then HS tracks the links being sent (even the garbage disposal is tracked by link execution...but turned off by a direct command). The reason I use a direct command for the disposal, I read somewhere that with a link, there is no ack. With an actual ON/OFF, the system will try a few times to get the command through...by using an ACK that the command got through (I'm trying to MAKE sure the command to turn off gets to the disposal switch).

I also take the approach of I want 90% of my lighting to still work without Homeseer (servers do die, Homeseer can become unstable (knock on wood, the revision I am using has been rock solid). By using links, I can control this configuration much easier.

--Dan

[drozwood90]

John,

Have you tried adjusting the "number of transmissions" setting on the UPB config page? I have no idea if that would help or should be messed with, but I saw it there the other day and thought "hmmm?"

Also, have you tried increasing the transmission attempts setting in the advanced tab of the upstart configuration for that device? again, this is a setting I've never messed with before, but it may help.

Ultimately I think Nightwalker's approach makes the most sense - that's how I do things as well.

Ian

I think this only helps with direct commands. Links are fired off and I do not think there is an ack (otherwise you might have 100 devices all trying to ack the same link command at the same time).

--Dan

[Oman]

Multiple transmissions work for both links and direct commands. Link commands have a sort-of ACK but it isn't too reliable.

The main reason to have links do the heavy lifting is that you can have 30 devices respond to a single link command. If you want to directly control 30 devices you need to have 30 round-trips at about one second per.

I setup links in logical groups. That way I can have both worlds. If a command needs to turn on 2 rooms of lights it sends out 2 link commands instead of 10 light commands. I can still have fairly granular control.

Jon

I think this only helps with direct commands. Links are fired off and I do not think there is an ack (otherwise you might have 100 devices all trying to ack the same link command at the same time).

--Dan