Coupler/repeater problems

[fran_joel]

I have a Mixed INSTEON/X-10 setup which used to work flawlessly.

However, I started having problems with my system after my coupler/repeater failed without warning.

I then replaced it with this coupler/repeater and then the problems started.

At first, i had a lot of devices not responding any longer or responding sporadically. After debugging some, I identified several signal hogs on my system and proceeded to replace or filter them. My reliability improved but one day it would work fine, and the next day, half of the house would be unresponsive.

When I looked at the coupler/repeater, the "error" led would always come ON in cases of misfiring.

I then spent an inordinate amount of time trying to determine why these error conditions were happening and I just couldn't. Every time I thought I had a fix, the problem would reappear the next day.

Just recently, however, I discovered that all my problems go away if I leave just one light (with a CFL bulb) in my basement on all the time...

When that light is ON, everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) works fine. When it's off, everything falls apart...

Has anybody experienced something like this ? what does it mean and what's the fix ? (except of course leaving the light ON 24/7)

[Rupp]

It's obvious that the light is injecting noise on the power line so why not simply change this light to a regular incandescent bulb?

[Pete]

I have not had any issues with the PLM /Insteon coupler repeater / CCFL's (~10 CCFL's - no incandescent) in the unfinished basement. In the areas where I have the punch panel and servers I utilize multiple CCFL's nearby and overhead for better visuals. I am currently using a mix of protocols and the polling on the Insteon that remains in place is just fine. I did test to see if there were affects with the CCFL lighting regarding signal strengths with a live view of the UPB PIM's and switches. I saw a slight difference; single %'s. I do not have any CCFL's on any Insteon switches. I would suggest as Rupp said to try removing them and see what the difference is. I just looked at my polling numbers and they are between 90-100% with most of them between like 95-100%. Most recently I've added multiple UPS's on the "rack" and it doesn't seem to have affected much.

[fran_joel]

It's obvious that the light is injecting noise on the power line so why not simply change this light to a regular incandescent bulb?

It's the other way around Rupp and Pete...

It's when the light is ON that my system works. So, whatever it does when it's ON, is beneficial (not detrimental) to my setup.
It's when the CFL bulb is OFF (or removed from the socket for that matter), that my system becomes unreliable...

This is why I'm so puzzled.

p.s. I suspect that this has to do with collisions of X-10 data from the repeater, as if there was some kind of echo that would interfere with the repeated signal. But how can there be echo ?

[Pete]

Understood. (from before). Historically; it sounds like your CCFL is acting like a bridge. The CCFL's shouldn't be doing much either way though.

I've modded my fuse panel such that all of the PIM's and Couplers are on their own breakers and the PIM's serial connections to the Edgeports are less than say about 5 feet.

I've noticed just moving the coupler / repeater from one position to another position in the fuse panel often does affect the signal strength. I still have both X-10 and Insteon repeaters in the Fuse panel in addition to using an XTB for my X10. In addition I have recently installed a UPB repeater and removed the UPB phase coupler.

If you think that might be an issue remove the X10 repeater and see what happens.

[fran_joel]

Thank you for your comments Pete.

My X-10 repeater is on its own dedicated double pole breaker and only at a one foot distance from the electrical panel. Electrically speaking however, the lighting fixture with the CFL bulb is located quite close to the electrical panel (in the same room in fact ...)

As far as signal strength goes, it is consistently good on both phases so I suspect it's not the real culprit. I believe the problem is more likely because of signal corruption (this is what the error led turning ON means at the repeater).

Somehow the CFL is removing this signal corruption but I don't know how...

Short of getting a sampling digital oscilloscope and looking at the X-10 signals on the sine wave, I don't know what to do.

p.s. removing the X-10 repeater is not an option because all X-10 modules on the alternate phase stop responding immediately. Besides, there is no other repeater installed.

[Rupp]

This "almost" sounds like a wiring issue to me. Does it have the same effect if you remove the bulb altogether?

[fran_joel]

This "almost" sounds like a wiring issue to me. Does it have the same effect if you remove the bulb altogether?

Yes removing the bulb has the same effect as turning it off, but I haven't tried what happens if I put a regular bulb in, instead of a CFL. I'll try that tonite to see...

Checking the wiring is also a good idea... Maybe the light circuit is noisy when lightly loaded and less noisy when more current is drawn for some reason !??
Anyway everything points to the basement lighting circuit, so I will also visually inspect the devices connected and the connections to this circuit and see if I can find anything.

[Pete]

It was a couple of years ago; and for whatever reason I wired the switch in the dimly lite attic and did switch the neutral (white) with the black (hot); it did cause me some issues; especially because I typically use a 3rd wire (green) to the metal box. Typically once wired I never return to look at the switch. It was about a year ago that I installed a commercial surge protector; while doing that I documented every breaker / location in the house using excel. This gave me a better overview of where and what was in the house. (mostly just 15AMP and 20AMP circuits). I wish they made a meter like the x10 signal strength meter to check on Insteon (portable). I VNC over to HS to check on the Insteon stuff; but its still easier with a small signal meter.

I wrote about my "adventures" "redoing" my fuse panel over on CT. There are a lot of pictures of my panel and what specifically I did.

Last year I had an issue with the UPB signal strength and I thought it might be related to the CCFLs in the basement. The UPB bridge didn't help. I couldn't find the issue. I guess it was the neighbors pool pump motor doing something to the electric feeds. I purchased a UPB repeater and the boost helped although at times the signal is still lower for whatever reasons.

There is a recent article on CNET about LED and CCFL lighting. It mentions the "breakdown" of CCFL's and their short lifespan.

[fran_joel]

The plot thickens...

Ok now I found out that the only bulb that makes makes my repeater work, is not only a CFL, but a dimmable CFL...

All other CFL bulbs and regular bulbs placed in the same socket have no effect whatsoever.

I also tried putting the dimmable CFL bulb elsewhere (ie in a lamp on a different circuit). This has also no effect: The bulb must be in its present socket to have any effect...!

Then, I finally turned off the entire basement lighting circuit (the one in which the bulb is installed) in order to rule out any circuit problems. The result is that the repeater still doesn't work when the entire circuit is off at the breaker, which pretty much eliminates the possibility of a circuit wiring problem...

So for the time being, I see no other solution but to keep the dimmable CFL bulb on all the time.

If anybody has any suggestions on how to debug this, I'm all ears...

[pbibm]

Is that dimmable CFL controlled by an insteon / x10 switch? The reason I'm asking is that typically a couple of watt's load is consumed to support the switch itself and lets some signal by which seems to be what's (watt's) needed.

If there is not one there, and some ,level of current is needed to get the signal to where its going, maybe that would work. At am minimum, an the insteon switch will boost its signals.

On the flip side, if there is an insteon x10 switch there already, maybe its bad and causign the problem when its off?

Paul

[fran_joel]

no there is no insteon or x10 switch there (on that circuit...)

I can try to put one there and see if it works better. An insteon device would boost the insteon signal. I follow you there. However, my problem is with the x10 signal...

Thanks for the suggestion

[pbibm]

no there is no insteon or x10 switch there (on that circuit...)

I can try to put one there and see if it works better. An insteon device would boost the insteon signal. I follow you there. However, my problem is with the x10 signal...

Thanks for the suggestion

No problem. If its not an insteon problem, then adding another x10 switch will add to attenuation and make things worse. That is a stinker of a problem and hope you can get it resolved quickly.

instead of the coupler repeater, I use 2 of the Smarthome booster linc 4827s. One is plugged into an outlet right at the panel Not a cheap solution but extremely effective.

[fran_joel]

Part of my problem is that right now my setup is about 75% INSTEON / 25% X-10.

The INSTEON network works fine. It's the X-10 network that bugs me, so I think that given my recent problems I'm very close to giving up trying to fix the X-10 part of the equation and moving to 100% Insteon...