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    Is Homeseer the right product for me?

    I'm building a 10K sq ft home (4 months away from construction) and want to automate lighting, security, HVAC, A/V, etc. Price is not really an issue, but I want to have a lot of control and flexibility over the life of the home, because I enjoy this stuff and want to have fun with it.

    I've got a friend who is using Homeseer (with retrofitted X-10 lighting, along with Omni Pro II, Ocelot, Elan, and a bunch of other products) and I love all the cool things he can do. I'm leaning against a Vantage-type of system where I have to hire someone every time I want to make a change, but I also don't want X-10 because my perception is it's a weak link in the chain, and a technological dead end (not that Vantage isn't).

    I'd like a Vantage-quality product that I can control with Homeseer, and that can be upgraded as new technology becomes necessary and available. I'm thinking maybe use ALC for my lighting, controlled by an Omni Pro II (rather than an OnQ controller)? It doesn't look like Homeseer can control ALC directly but it can talk to the OP2 which apparently has hardware to directly control ALC switches. That may be better anyway, so my lighting (and security) still works even if I shut down the PC running Homeseer.

    Also, if I use OP2 for lighting and security, will it automatically trigger Homeseer that an event (i.e. switch turned on, or motion detected) occurred so that I can i.e. announce the door opened or use Homeseer to turn on the hall light (rather than programming OP2 to do this) or whatever? Or do I need to poll the OP2 from Homeseer to know if something happened?

    Am I moving in the right direction, or should I be evaluating a higher-end software product (Premise?) and/or a higher-end lighting solution (Lightolier Compose?) or just forget the whole thing? ;-)

    What can I control with Homeseer, directly or indirectly, that's reliable and good looking? I plan to live in this house for the next 40 years, so I want it as future-proof as practicable. Sorry for my ignorance but I'm just getting my feet wet in HA and I'm overwhelmed -- but loving it.

    Thanks!

    #2
    Hi Randy,

    Welcome to the board (the best HA BB on the planet. ) and congratulations on your upcoming home.

    Since you are only 4 months away from construction (4 months away from breaking ground or putting the sticks up?), the first thing I would do is concentrate on the infrastructure and your subsystem choices. Software can do anything as long as the intelligence is available in the hardware and the necessary wiring is in place.

    Lighting:

    I would highly recommend a commercial grade lighting system over any X10 based system especially in a 10K sq. ft. home. Some might say to go with Z-wave but if money is not an issue (so to speak) then I would go with one of the big players in lighting like Vantage, Lutron, LiteTouch, and Lightolier. I’ve worked extensively with both Vantage and Lutron and can tell you that they are both fine products (I have no affiliation with them) and the protocol is available for integration. There is a Lightolier expert on the board (I believe his name is Shane) and you may want to contact him or Martin from Automated Outlet.

    Which system to choose? That can be a tough call and naturally each company will argue for their own product. Some clients base their decision on the esthetics of the keypads. I would look at each system and try the keypads on for size. How do the buttons feel? What do the keypads look like? You’ll want to see the colors they come in and how they look after the buttons are engraved or labeled.

    I don’t know if you have a lighting designer but you’ll need to know what kind of loads you’ll have in the house and also outdoors for the landscape lighting. You’ll want to make sure that the necessary power booster modules are available for the lighting system you choose.

    Even though there is no built-in support for Vantage or Lutron Homeworks Interactive, there is no reason someone wouldn’t be able to write a plug-in for either of them. One of the big beauties of HomeSeer is the open ended architecture. Like I said before, software can do anything as long as the thought is put into the hardware that is chosen. Software can always be changed. Hardware is much more difficult if not impossible is some situations.

    HVAC:

    Are you going with a commercial type HVAC like a Johnson Controls Metasys or an Alterton system? Or are you going with multiple forced air units? Whichever direction you are leaning towards make sure you can get thermostats (or some sort of central unit) that you can talk to with RS-232 (RS-485), Ethernet, or BACNet. You’ll probably want T-Stats that can allow for remote temperature sensors. Your HVAC contractor will obviously take care of the mechanicals but you’ll want to make sure they are up on the control side also

    Security:

    There are several security experts on the board here also to give advice on a panel to choose. You may want to check out a company called Europlex. They are more of a commercial grade system but also deal in high end homes. Again, you’ll want a system that you can integrate with for getting information like system status, zone status, ability to bypass/unbypass zones, multiple partition arming/disarming, and possibly contact closures for locking/unlocking doors. You’ll also want to get recommendations for a good solid security contractor. They are hard to find (or maybe I’ve just had a lot of bad luck)

    Audio/Video Distribution:

    There are several good systems to look at like Audio Access, ADA, and possibly Russound. This really depends on what your budget is since the numbers can go from one extreme to the other. You’ll want to make sure that whatever you choose has enough power, zone/subzone expandability, and source inputs.

    Phone System:

    You may want to look at installing a PBX in the house. Panasonic makes a pretty nice system that is expandable according to your needs.

    Wiring:

    I would suggest installing multiple utility plates in each room (so that you can move furniture around without a hassle) and each plate should consist of 3-Cat5e cables (maybe Cat6 is now out but I don’t think the specs have been approved) and 2- RJ6 quad shield co-axial cables. One Cat5e for your network, one for the phone, and one spare for whatever else like IR or one wire sensors or whatever. The RJ6 is for video distribution, one for incoming and one for outgoing (for possible modulation).

    Equipment room:

    Hopefully you can set some room aside for setting up some racks for computers and equipment. All wires should be home run to this central location for termination. The room/area should be kept cool and clean of dust.

    Home Theater:

    You may want to look at an AMX or Creston system for a home theater setup if you are planning on one. AMX and Crestron can be costly but they do offer quite a bit of flexibility and are solid products. Again, it depends on your budget and what you are looking for.

    Touchscreens:

    You may want to consider strategically placing several touchscreens throughout the home in the walls for local control. And instead of placing the entire PC/Embedded PC/web tablet/whatever in the wall, one flexible option is to only put the LCD, touchscreen, and a couple of other parts in the wall itself and then remote everything else back to your equipment room. This way as the years go by you’ll be able to upgrade at one central location where you’ll have plenty of room and not have to worry about finding a device that has the same footprint to fit in the wall. Or you can just go wireless and place the touchscreen device on the wall instead of in the wall.

    HomeSeer:

    I don’t see why HomeSeer wouldn’t be able to do the job for you. And as I mentioned before, if it doesn’t do what you need then you can customize it. There are people here on the board practically 24/7 and they are the greatest - no question - hands down! You’ll want to make sure that whatever route you choose you’ll have the support down the road. There are more expensive systems out there like you mentioned but that sure doesn’t make them better.


    This rambling has only scratched the surface but I hope it helps some and gets the ball rolling. If you have any questions fire away and I know others will chime in too. And feel free to contact me via email. My address is in my profile.

    Good luck!

    Joe
    HomeSeer Rocks!

    Comment


      #3
      Wow Joe -- THANK YOU for all that information! Yes I'm overwhelmed, but it's EXACTLY what I was hoping for -- a lot of grist for the mill at this point ;-). Right now the property is a dirt lot, the plans have just been submitted to the building department -- though it is still really just a floor plan -- and we're hoping to start on the foundation in July. So I've got some time, but I want to work on this pretty much full time until I feel like I've got all my ducks in a row in terms of technology, consultants/engineers, and products.

      My sister just installed a basic Vantage lighting system in her home and I really like it -- the quality of the switches is fantastic, and it does the job she wants, which is just basic lighting control. But I have reservations on two things:

      1. Since Vantage home runs all the A/C and only low voltage to the switches, will the wiring to the switches be compatible with whatever the Next Big Thing is that I may want to install in 10 or 20 years? And since there is no A/C at the switch, I can't retro-fit to anything that switches the power directly. Perhaps Vantage just runs Cat 5 which is the same bus that any other home-run system would use?

      2. Since there *is* no interface to Vantage from Homeseer, how will I interface Homeseer to my lighting system -- until someone gets around to doing this? My perception of Homeseer is that it's very X-10-centric -- but perhaps that's just because that's what most folks seem to use.

      Thanks again for the snappy and incredibly informative response, Joe! I hope others will chime in as well.

      Randy

      Comment


        #4
        Randy,

        Regarding #1 – You don’t have to go with a centralized lighting system with Vantage (or Lutron) if you don’t want to. They do have dimmers and switches available that have both low voltage and high voltage at the switch itself. I tried to find a link that explains the difference between and the pros and cons of a centralized vs. a decentralized lighting system but came up empty. Your best bet would be to talk to a rep to come up with a system that fits your needs. It’s very possible you may end up with a mixture and have a hybrid system.

        Regarding #2 – Yes it would be when someone gets around to it (which may not be too likely) or you can write the interface yourself (if you’re so inclined) or of course you could always contract someone to do it for you. Vantage does have a serial port for third party integrators and a robust protocol. With custom written software you can easily monitor the bus and be notified whenever a button is pushed and/or released and then let that trigger any type of event you want. You can also control the LEDs on the keypads, ask for status for any switch, control their relay modules, and all sorts of good stuff. I would tend to believe that many people who use HomeSeer use X10 but they also control an abundance of other systems and devices.

        Other stuff to throw in the stew:

        Motorized Shades:

        Some other things you may want to consider are motorized shades (There are relay modules available with both Vantage and Lutron that can be used with motorized controllers like Somfy.) Motorized shades are not only convenient but they can also save your furniture especially if you have large glass windows. The sun can do real damage.

        Cameras:

        You may also want to look into network cameras so that you can monitor your home when you are away.

        Gates and Garages:

        If you are going to have an entrance gate you may want to consider a motorized one with an interface to your phone system and a camera so that when someone wants to gain access you can talk to them via the phone and view them. Pull wire to the garages too so you can control them and get open/close status.

        Water systems:

        If you have plans for a pool or other water devices then Jandy Aqualink or Acutrol have intelligent controllers that can be integrated so that you can remote control the pool lights, jets, spa, fountains, and whatever else.

        Lightning protection:

        This one is extremely important and is overlooked many times. Places to really keep an eye out for are areas where wire is run outside like to an entrance gate. You want to make sure that if you do take a hit it doesn’t smoke all the electronics in the house. There are people out there that specialize in assuring that proper grounding is in place.

        Things to watch out for:

        Try to avoid cutting edge technology; more times than not you will bleed.

        When you search for consultants, I would make sure they’ve been around the block a few times. You want someone that knows the right questions to ask and someone who can work with all the sub-contractors. You’ll want a go to person that will be out for your best interest and not in it to sell you a bunch of products that you may not need or want. Check his/her references and talk to clients that have worked with them. If you are going to go with an integrator then check out previous installations to make sure they can walk the walk along with talking the talk.

        Start asking yourself questions and put in writing what is important to you. Some people are into exotic lighting, some are big time audiophiles, some do a lot of entertaining, some spend a fortune on landscaping. Whoever is going to help you will need to know your lifestyle and the lifestyle of your family to be able to give you solid recommendations. Start thinking about what each room in the house will be used for.

        Which ever road you chose I would make sure you get things in writing so you know exactly what you are going to get and what you’re not going to get. How long are the warranties? What type of preventive maintenance will there be? Even though price may not be an issue you’ll still want to make sure you get the best bang for your buck. Most importantly you’ll want to make sure the job is done right the first time.

        You are building a substantial sized home and you are in perfect position since you haven’t broken ground yet so you can shop around and get all your questions answered. Since you do have the opportunity I would advise to make sure you have plenty of wire pulled. There are many things you can do with wireless technology but wireless means less wires and doesn’t mean no wires.

        One last thing to mention is to document along the way. Take plenty of pictures and video so that you’ll have reference to where everything is. I would ask for a cable guide and drawings for whoever is going to do your work. You’ll want to make sure all the wires are properly labeled and dressed in when they are terminated.

        Most importantly, have fun!

        Joe
        HomeSeer Rocks!

        Comment


          #5
          Joe,
          I'd highly recomend Lightolier Compose for your lighting control. It ties in very well to HAI(which I highly recomend) and Homeseer (which I also highly recomend).

          Compose is a powerline carrier product but with Lightolier Compose firewalls and a proper installation you will not have any issues common to X-10. I can help guide you through the proper installation to make sure it is rock-solid.

          Some other advantages are that it is very easy to add switches later. With a hardwired and homerun system, this is not easy to do. Programming is also very easy. It is easy to adjust room or whole house scenses. Homeseer and HAI can respond and any keypad button press. Right now I have one of my keypads that turns on my tv as it adjusts my lights to a TV watching scene. The off button turns off the lights and tv.

          Most people will agree that Lightolier has one of the best looking keypads out there. There are custom engravable and well lit.

          Here is a message forum that I moderate if you have some more Compose specific questions or just want to read a little more.
          Compose Message Board

          Good luck in your design.

          -Shane

          Comment


            #6
            Hi Shane,

            I assume you meant to address your last post to Randy and not myself. I plead ignorance to Lightolier which is why I referred Randy to you. I do have a few questions though:

            1) What’s the largest home you’ve been able to successfully integrate using PLC as your medium for protocol transmission?

            2) How big of loads can Lightolier handle?

            3) Is there an address limitation of 256 like there is with X10?

            4) Can you adjust fade rates and do you get a full range of intensity values?

            TIA

            Joe
            HomeSeer Rocks!

            Comment


              #7
              Joe and Shane,

              Thanks again for the replies -- didn't want you to think I was ignoring you or didn't appreciate your input. I'm just knee deep and don't have a logical list of follow-up questions ;-)

              I am really surprised there is no interface for Lutron Homeworks Interactive to HomeSeer. I've got a friend who is a pretty big promoter of Premise and he says it supports Lutron HI and also has good built-in support for IP-based devices like the Nobu in-wall touch screen PC.

              Comments appreciated as always. Thanks again.

              Randy

              Comment


                #8
                There isn't a software or hardware system out there that Premise supports that HomeSeer can't support as well. We are much more open and do not require that interfaces (Premise calls them drivers) be written by us. The fact that they do not appear in our list of supported interfaces is because nobody has donated a plug-in to us, or we have not received enough requests to do one ourselves.

                I met several dealers/installers that use Premise at the EH Expo last week - they were very pleased to see that HomeSeer works and the ones I spoke with will be making the switch.

                We do already have plug-ins for Lightolier Compose and Lutron RadioRA at the mid to high-end ranges. Vantage would be easy if we had a copy of the protocol. If you sought a plug-in author on this message board and had one written, you could recover some of your development costs by then offering it via the updater. We do not have any desire to own every plug-in out there, so if you wanted to provide it that is fine with us. There are many plug-ins out there that never make it to the message board or the updater. (Usually due to the author not wanting to support it.)

                Let us know if you have any other questions.

                Regards,

                Rick Tinker (a.k.a. "Tink")
                HomeSeer Technologies

                Regards,

                Rick Tinker (a.k.a. "Tink")

                Comment


                  #9
                  Hi Randy P,

                  Unlike you I came in to home automation by retrofitting. I started with the programme that came free with the CM12 and quickly decided that it was a peice of junk, far too basic, I think from memory the programme was calles HA.

                  I then downloaded and purchased Zeus, I was very impressed, and had it not been that Zeus does not support the CM12 only the CM11 (I live in the UK) I would have probably stuck with it, and that would have been my loss. I then went onto HomeSeer and it's add on bits such as DooMotion etc.

                  I have been lucky that since introducing Home Automation I have had the opertunity of doing complete rewires du to alterations being done to the home.

                  Personally, I would recomend HS. The support on this BBS is amazing and friendly, even from the "Tech's"! I have not yet found a peice of X10 that HS cannot handle. The biggest problem I have found with scripts, scenes call them what ever and what I would like HS to perform is my imagination. The possibilities seem endless.

                  I run HS on a small machine running Windows 98v2, and it performs very quick, a bit slow when it starts to stack commands, but that is down to the OS.

                  Given the chance of building my own home I would certainally base the electrics arround being HS controlled.

                  Final word. When I embarked on installing home automation my partner, Suzanne, was 100% against it, we agreed it would be resticted to the Living area (room). Now, at her insistance, it's throughout the home; the drive; the courtyard and the garden.

                  Gogs.

                  [This message was edited by Gogs on Mon, 15 March 2004 at 02:48 PM.]
                  sigpic
                  A founder member of "The HA Pioneer Group" otherwise known as the "Old farts club!"

                  Comment


                    #10
                    First of all, I'd like to say that Joe has done an excellent job helping identify some of the issues you are going to run into.

                    As far as the Lightolier questions you posted, I agree that I think Lightolier Compose would be the best solution for what you are doing. It is a system that will give you the flexibility of a non-wired system while giving you the reliability that you are going to need exspecially in a house that size. It is also fully compatible with HomeSeer.

                    One of Joe's questions was the number of addresses. The Lightolier Compose system can have at least 640 addresses due to the way devices are addressed. Shane can elaborate on this better than I can.

                    Next question - has Lightolier ever installed a system of this size? Lightolier has done many installations much large than 10,000 square feet. The founder of Home Depot uses a Lightolier Compose system in his house. That system is configured with 128 lighting circuits all going through 16 Compose firewalls. I'm not sure of the number of controlled devices but I'm sure it's very large.

                    I am a Lightolier Master Stocking Distributor and also have the advantage of being located in the same town as the Lightolier Controls headquarters building. If you have a set of plans I could borrow, I would be happy to take them in and have some of the best Lightolier engineers work with me to configure a system for you. Please let me know if I can help.

                    Thanks,

                    Martin

                    Martin Custer
                    Martin@AutomatedOutlet.com
                    www.AutomatedOutlet.com
                    Authorized HomeSeer Distributor
                    Martin Custer

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I am sure by now that you have at least decided on Homeseer to manage whatever hardware systems you decide upon. Don't forget that you can also blend systems where they best "fit".

                      For a high end, customizable and custom graphical front end, I would highly suggest www.cinemaronline.com MainLobby suite of software products. A 2 way Homeseer interface now exists and is in final development and testing and I have to say it is working out extremely well. It definately will be full bore by the time you need it.

                      I am currently working on scenes for my house the are examples of what is easily possible. It gets raves from visitors on how easy things are to operate with no previous instructions and no web learning at all. Very intuitive.

                      For the scope of your project, WOW factor should be a high consideration and benefit.

                      Comment

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