Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Why companies keep saying X10 is unreliable?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Why companies keep saying X10 is unreliable?

    I was looking through Insteon, Z-Wave etc and all of them keep saying X10 is unreliable? What is their definition of unreliable? I haven't had any issues with X10 and every single light bulbs in my home is X10'ed with CFLs and yet to experience it not turning on/off when I want it.

    Or they actually mean X10 is unreliable for dummies?

    #2
    Essentially it is subject to the effects imposed on the power line by nonX10 equipment. That means it can change over time based upon what you have plugged in. It can be managed, but other technologies are not as sensitive to external interference.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Michael McSharry View Post
      Essentially it is subject to the effects imposed on the power line by nonX10 equipment. That means it can change over time based upon what you have plugged in. It can be managed, but other technologies are not as sensitive to external interference.
      Ah got it. So it's more like unreliable for normal user who expect things to just work OOB. True.

      Comment


        #4

        Comment


          #5
          Another BIG factor in the claims of unreliability is that the X10 protocol is by its very design "unreliable" in the same sense that UDP communication across a TCP/IP network is unreliable vs. TCP. What I mean is that X10 (I'm talking powerline, not RF) and UDP are both "send and forget" protocols. There is no acknowledgement from the receiver that a command was ever received. All communication is best effort only, so there is no error correction.

          Because it's a one-way send and forget protocol, X10 suffers more from interference than the so-called reliable protocols such as insteon that call for acknowledgement of command receipt. If a command is sent but not received on a network using a reliable protocol you'll know it, vs. just not having the device react as in X10.
          HS Pro 3.0 | Linux Ubuntu 16.04 x64 virtualized under Proxmox (KVM)
          Hardware: Z-NET - W800 Serial - Digi PortServer TS/8 and TS/16 serial to Ethernet - Insteon PLM - RFXCOM - X10 Wireless
          Plugins: HSTouch iOS and Android, RFXCOM, BlueIris, BLLock, BLDSC, BLRF, Insteon PLM (MNSandler), Device History, Ecobee, BLRing, Kodi, UltraWeatherWU3
          Second home: Zee S2 with Z-Wave, CT101 Z-Wave Thermostat, Aeotec Z-Wave microswitches, HSM200 occupancy sensor, Ecolink Z-Wave door sensors, STI Driveway Monitor interfaced to Zee S2 GPIO pins.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by reidfo View Post
            What I mean is that X10 (I'm talking powerline, not RF) and UDP are both "send and forget" protocols. There is no acknowledgement from the receiver that a command was ever received. All communication is best effort only, so there is no error correction.

            Because it's a one-way send and forget protocol, X10 suffers more from interference than the so-called reliable protocols such as insteon that call for acknowledgement of command receipt. If a command is sent but not received on a network using a reliable protocol you'll know it, vs. just not having the device react as in X10.
            That is true of the basic X10 devices. It worked well for years because the AC powerlines were relatively benign when the protocol was developed.

            I used X10 devices that responded to status queries while testing the XTB-232, so the state could be determined. Those devices also automatically transmit a status change when controlled locally. The downside is that the two-way devices are considerably more expensive than the basic X10 devices, which were often available as cheap as $5 per module.

            The more expensive devices, such as those sold by Leviton, include AGC, so they are much better at dealing with poweline noise. The only time I ever had a problem with a Leviton switch was due to a Lumoform 120V 4W LED light that put out horrendous noise right in the middle of the X10 bandpass.

            Jeff

            Comment


              #7
              The perspective to keep in this thread is that x10 is not a "on size fits all" solution and its not a matter of "dummies". My house has really bad RF and line noise problems affecting everything, not just HA, so I understand where Reid is coming from. As newer electronics come out, TVs, charges, etc, it is definitively getting worse.

              I have 2 way x10 devices, but (other than RCS plugin) its incumbent on me via scripts / events to verify their state and clean up transmission failures when things don't go as planned. The x10 protocol by itself does nothing on its own about transmission validation.

              With insteon, the protocol automatically verifies states and retransmits when needed. Its a deeper, hardware enforced protocol layer between the devices and I have to do nothing to enjoy the benefits of this accuracy. There are other benefits like speed. Insteon is 2800 baud (or faster), x10 is 60 baud. I (and family) feel that when turning lights on. Also, the cost of filters to block new electronics noise in my house, when added in, made insteon easier to deal with cost wise; I don't need the filters and turn that money into a better technical solution. Then I have to get 2 way. And Jeff's module. You have to add the total cost of making X10 work into the cost of the cheap switches.

              Jeff, I am not doubting your device and its engineering brilliance at all; I have gone back and forth about buying one. But to Reid's point, there are limitations within the design of x10 itself and some houses will run to problems that are really difficult to overcome.

              I know there are people that have great success with x10 and I think that's great. Its just not true for me.
              Paul

              Comment


                #8
                I think Paul has hit on the one factor that is the Achilles heel of X10. Its performance is not consistent from one place to another. Some have no problems. Others, such as in my case, just need more umpf from their PIM, which the XTB-IIR provides superbly. Still others get by with a few well-placed filters.

                The problem for a business that is trying to promote an automation technology is that the worst case situation drives the product requirements. Hence, to cope with the noise generators and signal suckers that may be present, the system has to supply devices and capability that negate one of the major benefits most of us enjoy - cheap devices that are really easy to use. Instead, you get Insteon and UPB and Z-wave. Yes, X10 could be made to be comparably reliable, but it would no longer be less expensive, and it would still be s_l_o_w.

                So, X10 continues to be a great technology for hobbyists willing to experiment to find what works, but it's a non-starter for any business that's looking to grow HA into a mainstream opportunity.
                Mike____________________________________________________________ __________________
                HS3 Pro Edition 3.0.0.548, NUC i3

                HW: Stargate | NX8e | CAV6.6 | Squeezebox | PCS | WGL 800RF | RFXCOM | Vantage Pro | Green-Eye | Edgeport/8 | Way2Call | Ecobee3 | EtherRain | Ubiquiti

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by reidfo View Post
                  Another BIG factor in the claims of unreliability is that the X10 protocol is by its very design "unreliable" in the same sense that UDP communication across a TCP/IP network is unreliable vs. TCP. What I mean is that X10 (I'm talking powerline, not RF) and UDP are both "send and forget" protocols. There is no acknowledgement from the receiver that a command was ever received. All communication is best effort only, so there is no error correction.

                  Because it's a one-way send and forget protocol, X10 suffers more from interference than the so-called reliable protocols such as insteon that call for acknowledgement of command receipt. If a command is sent but not received on a network using a reliable protocol you'll know it, vs. just not having the device react as in X10.
                  As a network engineer I have to point out that although this comparison between X10 and UDP might be mostly accurate, it's somewhat misleading.

                  UDP is defined as an 'unreliable' PROTOCOL, but that doesn't mean it can't be used to make a 'reliable' APPLICATION. It simply means that the protocol itself doesn't take care of error correction in the way that TCP does. All that means is that an application that relies on UDP as the underlying transport has to account for error correction within the application design. That can easily mean that a receiving application CAN acknowledge that a command was received, or not, depending on the requirements of the application.

                  MANY _reliable_ applications use UDP because of the flexibility of such a design, instead of relying on the built-in algorithms of TCP.

                  In fact, in today's world the built-in error correcting algorithms of TCP reliability are often a source of performance problems for network architects because they were designed for a completely different network environment, and are a little overly cautious for modern networks.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    mterry, your point is understood and I agree. However in the context of one-way X10, the "application" level error correction isn't really possible or at least isn't very practical. It's the reason I moved away from powerline X10 years ago. I had no way to verify that my devices were actually in the desired state, and noise issues were causing too many signals to be lost.
                    HS Pro 3.0 | Linux Ubuntu 16.04 x64 virtualized under Proxmox (KVM)
                    Hardware: Z-NET - W800 Serial - Digi PortServer TS/8 and TS/16 serial to Ethernet - Insteon PLM - RFXCOM - X10 Wireless
                    Plugins: HSTouch iOS and Android, RFXCOM, BlueIris, BLLock, BLDSC, BLRF, Insteon PLM (MNSandler), Device History, Ecobee, BLRing, Kodi, UltraWeatherWU3
                    Second home: Zee S2 with Z-Wave, CT101 Z-Wave Thermostat, Aeotec Z-Wave microswitches, HSM200 occupancy sensor, Ecolink Z-Wave door sensors, STI Driveway Monitor interfaced to Zee S2 GPIO pins.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      While I agree that X10 via power-line can be unreliable, it is still a very usable and extremely cost effective solution and can still be used for many applications. When I first started using X10 back 20 years ago I learned very quickly that sometimes the lights turned ON or OFF unexpectedly. But mostly they would miss an ON or OFF command. So I began adding extra OFF commands (with a 30 second or 1 minute delay) to all my Homeseer events. I also send an OFF to all X10 devices at 3AM every day. One of my primary goals of home automation is energy management. X10 can really help by turning OFF lights that are not needed particularly in the basement, garage, and outdoor floodlights.

                      You can get X10 modules for around $5; a z-wave equivalent costs $50 or more! Worst case scenario is that X10 misses a command and the lights stay ON all day! And with over 20 years experience, I can say that this does not happen very often.

                      Now I know that for many people, X10 power-line just does not work because of power-line noise. But I also think this gets exaggerated. For many, many people it can still be very useful.

                      That said, I have moved to z-wave for certain lighting and appliance applications where reliability is critical. For example, I use a z-wave module to switch ON/OFF my family room gas fireplace. I also use z-wave for outdoor path lighting and for my Christmas tree lights.

                      I am not ready to give up on X10 yet.

                      Steve Q
                      HomeSeer Version: HS3 Pro Edition 3.0.0.368, Operating System: Microsoft Windows 10 - Home, Number of Devices: 373, Number of Events: 666, Enabled Plug-Ins
                      2.0.83.0: BLRF, 2.0.10.0: BLUSBUIRT, 3.0.0.75: HSTouch Server, 3.0.0.58: mcsXap, 3.0.0.11: NetCAM, 3.0.0.36: X10, 3.0.1.25: Z-Wave,Alexa,HomeKit

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Only reason I am still with x10 is the price. Socket rocket cost me $3 and Z-Wave/Insteon wants 30-50 to do the same sh|t. Hopefully as time goes by, these "superior by a tick" devices becomes cheaper, i might consider. Only thing I want now is a Z-Wave door lock, but still costly to begin with. We'll see.....

                        Jeff, keep up the good work. I hope to keep my X-10 devices around for quite some time

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by bmxtreme View Post
                          Only reason I am still with x10 is the price. Socket rocket cost me $3 and Z-Wave/Insteon wants 30-50 to do the same sh|t. Hopefully as time goes by, these "superior by a tick" devices becomes cheaper, i might consider. Only thing I want now is a Z-Wave door lock, but still costly to begin with. We'll see.....

                          Jeff, keep up the good work. I hope to keep my X-10 devices around for quite some time
                          Gee.... where do you get Socket rockets for $3?
                          HS3PRO 3.0.0.500 as a Fire Daemon service, Windows 2016 Server Std Intel Core i5 PC HTPC Slim SFF 4GB, 120GB SSD drive, WLG800, RFXCom, TI103,NetCam, UltraNetcam3, BLBackup, CurrentCost 3P Rain8Net, MCsSprinker, HSTouch, Ademco Security plugin/AD2USB, JowiHue, various Oregon Scientific temp/humidity sensors, Z-Net, Zsmoke, Aeron Labs micro switches, Amazon Echo Dots, WS+, WD+ ... on and on.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by langenet View Post
                            Gee.... where do you get Socket rockets for $3?
                            Sorry, i miscalculated, not $3, but ~$3.50 after tax. Got them from x10.com in bulk. I am not sure what I am doing will do any harm but my whole house lights are plugged into a socket rocket. I didn't want the "click/clack" sound of those relays.

                            Comment

                            Working...
                            X