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  • mylestec
    replied
    Originally posted by rprade View Post
    I don’t know what you’re expecting, but the switches need about 1-2 seconds to determine the tap count. Our Events trigger immediately once the scene is reported to HS, so the lag is only 1-2 seconds from the last button push. I’ve never heard anyone complain about the lag and we have dozens of scenes triggered by multi tap and press and hold.
    Yea.... my wife complained immediately... kind of a bummer because I had plans to use those multi-color LEDs for indications. The WallMotes are nearly instantaneous except for my kitchen lights, but I think that is because they have dated 120v - 12v transformers that take a while to provide the voltage to the LED replacement lights.

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  • randy
    replied
    Originally posted by mylestec View Post

    I tried using those switches for scenes. The problem I couldn't get past, even with HS tech support, was to minimize the lag between the last multi-tap and the actuation of the scene.
    I don’t know what you’re expecting, but the switches need about 1-2 seconds to determine the tap count. Our Events trigger immediately once the scene is reported to HS, so the lag is only 1-2 seconds from the last button push. I’ve never heard anyone complain about the lag and we have dozens of scenes triggered by multi tap and press and hold.

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  • Alex_W
    replied
    Originally posted by mylestec View Post

    I tried using those switches for scenes. The problem I couldn't get past, even with HS tech support, was to minimize the lag between the last multi-tap and the actuation of the scene. I wound up replacing them with Quad WallMotes. Although they are less intuitive for someone whom hasn't seen them before, they serve the purpose and also have a relatively high WAF. I understand there is a drawback if HS goes down and/or the WallMotes loose their charge. However, one of the things automation helps us solve is the elimination of large clusters of wall switches. This house was originally built in '53 and was poorly electrically renovated in the 70's. They added clusters of 3 way switches EVERYWHERE! The WallMotes and associated in-box devices clean up the walls and look like we've finally brought the house into the 21st century.

    Alex... not sure I subscribe to your belief that automation devalues a property. I've recently rented our previous single family residence which we had put a Wink hub with connected bulbs, Lutron Caseta switches, and a few smart outlets into. The fact we had some sort of automation system drove a few rental offers according to our real estate agent. That said, the HS system in my current residence is turning into something much more complicated. The trick will be maintaining some type of backup functionality for the day when either the HS SEL, or the Deconz Raspberry Pi dies.

    Thanks again for all of your help guys.... Randy... I'll have a look at your posts to see if there is something I can adapt to disable and re-enable motion control. I have a Honeywell (Jasco) dimmer which isn't scene capable in that room. Not sure if a manual activation of the up/on button could be set to disable motion and vice-versa, a bottom tap of the down/off button could be set to re-enable it, But for now.... onto non-automation things like baseboards and trim ugh!

    -brandon
    I feel your pain regarding the 1970's wiring. Many people don't realize that the NEC was different then and that a neutral wire was not required in every lighting switch box. Given that there are five ways to wire a 3-way switch and eight ways to wire a 4-way switch (many of which do not provide a neutral in the switch box) retrofitting smart device can be quite a challenge.

    I suppose attitudes are changing regarding automation as more and more younger buyers enter the housing market. I suspect it depends on the area of the country in which one lives and the sophistication of the market. One of my near-term goals is upgrading my device to allow associations to function with or without HS. Fortunately, I only have a few areas where that is an issue.

    FWIW, I've used non-scene capable Jasco switches in virtual 3-way circuits and the results were marginal. The devices would usually function eventually, but there was often a significant lag.

    Good luck. Let us know how you work it out.

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  • mylestec
    replied
    Originally posted by rprade View Post
    .....With HomeSeer scene capable switches......
    I tried using those switches for scenes. The problem I couldn't get past, even with HS tech support, was to minimize the lag between the last multi-tap and the actuation of the scene. I wound up replacing them with Quad WallMotes. Although they are less intuitive for someone whom hasn't seen them before, they serve the purpose and also have a relatively high WAF. I understand there is a drawback if HS goes down and/or the WallMotes loose their charge. However, one of the things automation helps us solve is the elimination of large clusters of wall switches. This house was originally built in '53 and was poorly electrically renovated in the 70's. They added clusters of 3 way switches EVERYWHERE! The WallMotes and associated in-box devices clean up the walls and look like we've finally brought the house into the 21st century.

    Alex... not sure I subscribe to your belief that automation devalues a property. I've recently rented our previous single family residence which we had put a Wink hub with connected bulbs, Lutron Caseta switches, and a few smart outlets into. The fact we had some sort of automation system drove a few rental offers according to our real estate agent. That said, the HS system in my current residence is turning into something much more complicated. The trick will be maintaining some type of backup functionality for the day when either the HS SEL, or the Deconz Raspberry Pi dies.

    Thanks again for all of your help guys.... Randy... I'll have a look at your posts to see if there is something I can adapt to disable and re-enable motion control. I have a Honeywell (Jasco) dimmer which isn't scene capable in that room. Not sure if a manual activation of the up/on button could be set to disable motion and vice-versa, a bottom tap of the down/off button could be set to re-enable it, But for now.... onto non-automation things like baseboards and trim ugh!

    -brandon

    Leave a comment:


  • Alex_W
    replied
    Originally posted by rprade View Post
    In most homes CAT cabling will be a thing of the past soon. It will all be RF.
    RF is certainly becoming the preferred method of data transmission for many applications, despite its many shortcomings. Lennar Homes is abandoning traditional structured wiring for a "mostly" DIY RF solution. But they are using Cat 6a cable to wire up to three Ruckus access points, one for a video doorbell and another to an electronics closet. There will still be RG6 coax run to primary TV locations. The primary reason for the change is to eliminate the need for a "custom installer". Obviously the folks at CEDIA are none too thrilled about this turn of events (ask Walt Zerbe), but DIY solutions are more than adequate for most users and professional custom installers have had very little success penetrating the mid-priced housing market anyway. Physical connection is still far superior to RF in terms of performance,reliability and security. Physical media has far greater bandwidth, fewer failure points, and it can be easily isolated. For these and other reasons I think cabling will be around for a long time, especially at the high-end of the market. In the interest of full disclosure, I wrote part of the TIA/EIA standard for residential low-voltage wiring.

    My personal rule is to use cable where I can and RF where I must. My surveillance system is isolated on a separate subnet from the rest of my devices and all IP cameras are hard-wired. The wireless devices I do use are not able to access the Internet (LAN only). The Android devices I use as touchscreens have no SIM cards installed. The two mobile phone I have are old flip-phones with no data or text capability. They are kept in our cars for emergency use and stored in stainless steel cocktail shakers (Faraday cages) in the cupholders. My home phones are hardwired to a VoIP hub.

    Wireless is a sucking chest wound when it comes to security. When I taught data security, we used to say that one of the primary defenses against data breach was having nothing worth stealing. This is no longer the case. By implementing strategies that can lock users out of their own data it is no longer a matter of what the data is worth on the open market, but rather what the data is worth to the victim. Brilliant!

    I believe that the popularity of wireless communication is partly a result of a fundamental misunderstanding of its vulnerabilities. But what do I know?

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  • randy
    replied
    Originally posted by Eman View Post
    If I believe that the future will be more automation (AI) not less and if a modern home is built without CAT cables in place I don't know what is So not to confuse the topic at hand, I think you could use the the double tap feature to call upon other events not lights oriented. I could be wrong but hey, there is no such thing as one size fits all.

    It's just my prerogative


    Eman.
    Of course the scenes on a HomeSeer switch or dimmer can trigger any Event, so the sky's the limit with what you can do with 12 scenes available on HS-Wx200 series devices. We use multiple taps to put the house to sleep, wake it up, control power and change lighting scenes.

    In most homes CAT cabling will be a thing of the past soon. It will all be RF.

    Leave a comment:


  • Eman
    replied
    If I believe that the future will be more automation (AI) not less and if a modern home is built without CAT cables in place I don't know what is So not to confuse the topic at hand, I think you could use the the double tap feature to call upon other events not lights oriented. I could be wrong but hey, there is no such thing as one size fits all.

    It's just my prerogative


    Eman.

    Leave a comment:


  • Alex_W
    replied
    We share the same philosophy then. I'm currently replacing my first generation Z-wave devices so I can make associations that will function without a controller. I use URC remotes (I program them myself, I wouldn't pay for that service) and most of the events in my system involve scheduled lighting changes and irrigation. I use Android phones and wall mounted tablets with ImperiHome in several areas, but my wife has no interest in those. To be honest, automation is the only thing I use the phones for at all. They don't even have SIM cards installed. I just rooted them and placed them in charging stands as touchscreens.

    My actual telephones are all wired to the wall as God intended. I have four early DTMF phones that I've restored. On two I've added a "message waiting" circuit and beehive lights. Two are early Princess models that I've modified to allow 12VDC LED illumination. I also have a rotary dial phone and a reproduction "kettle" phone. I use a device called a Tel-Lynx (unfortunately no longer available) to screen all incoming calls and to manage the white list of callers and messaging. The Tel-Lynx also converts pulse to DTMF allowing for the use of the rotary phone. Oh, and a red no-dial "Hot Line" phone with an internal dialer that calls the local pizza shop when I lift the handset. One huge advantage of using vintage telephones is that I can slam the phone when someone annoys me. It's very effective as many people have never experienced the sound of a phone being slammed in their ear. People also find it disconcerting when we answer the phone "Hello?" or ask who is calling (no caller ID). That's fun too.

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  • randy
    replied
    Originally posted by Alex_W View Post
    I'm impressed with the programming, but I must say that "up double tap / bottom double tap" or "press and hold" and the like would never fly in my house unless they were ancillary operations . This is because I have a wife. Every switch must be intuitive. No exceptions. I can add in some "crap" that only I am interested in using, but at the fundamental level every switch must function as if it were an electrical device.

    The true test of any "automation" is that it doesn't require anyone to learn to "fly" the house. Up must be on, down must be off. Press and hold for dimming is as far as it can go. My standard for any automation is whether a real estate agent could walk into the house and control the lights like there was no automation in place. If we go beyond that, or ignore the fundamental functionality of electrical devices, we are losing touch with the primary functionality of electrical devices that 99.9% of people expect.

    Not to put too fine a point on it, but in most cases a "home automation" or "systems integration" system devalues a home. I love my systems, but if I were inclined to sell they would be the first thing to go.
    The devices are intuitive. You walk in the room and touch the switch/dimmer to turn on or turn off. Motion will control the device as well. You can ramp up or down the dimmers manually, just as if they weren't automated. In that respect they work just as they should. If HomeSeer is shut down, everything still works manually. All I did was "add in some 'crap"' for overrides to normal function. Those ARE ancillary operations.

    Anyone who uses our lighting has no idea there is automation behind it. Switches work like switches, dimmers like dimmers. The "crap" is consistent throughout the house and my wife uses and appreciates the ability to override motion control when needed or to double tap to get the lights bright on rare occasions. The automated part she really loves. Any lighting event is adjusted for time of day, activity, ambient light, etc. It is rare we even manually control a light in living or areas, but when we do it is a simple tap of a light switch just like any other home.

    The primary point of my post was to address the question of the OP, to set lighting levels based upon factors, which my house has done (through several iterations) for several years.

    If you follow what I post in these forums, everything I do with regard to automation is with a plan such that if automation is removed, there is a manual component. We have a wonderfully automated hydronic heating and hot water system, but if HomeSeer dies, it reverts to standard thermostat/servo control. If a houseguest wants a room warmer, they go to a thermostat and set it. If they want a light on or off, they control it at the lamp or the wall switch. The Harmony remotes control entertainment without regard for HomeSeer, but automation can adjust lighting and other things when these remotes are used. We do have 8 button remotes in several rooms for scenes or remote control of lights. If HomeSeer is down, they do not work.

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  • aa6vh
    replied
    I think most will agree with you. And that is why the single press up or down does something "ordinary". It's the long press/double press/triple press where things get fancy.

    Leave a comment:


  • Alex_W
    replied
    I'm impressed with the programming, but I must say that "up double tap / bottom double tap" or "press and hold" and the like would never fly in my house unless they were ancillary operations . This is because I have a wife. Every switch must be intuitive. No exceptions. I can add in some "crap" that only I am interested in using, but at the fundamental level every switch must function as if it were an electrical device.

    The true test of any "automation" is that it doesn't require anyone to learn to "fly" the house. Up must be on, down must be off. Press and hold for dimming is as far as it can go. My standard for any automation is whether a real estate agent could walk into the house and control the lights like there was no automation in place. If we go beyond that, or ignore the fundamental functionality of electrical devices, we are losing touch with the primary functionality of electrical devices that 99.9% of people expect.

    Not to put too fine a point on it, but in most cases a "home automation" or "systems integration" system devalues a home. I love my systems, but if I were inclined to sell they would be the first thing to go.

    Leave a comment:


  • randy
    replied
    We have many of our lights using default levels of Twilight, day, night and night asleep. I have written about it a number of times. Here is a place to start. This system has had a number of updates since I first wrote about it. The link to earlier posts is in this one.

    With HomeSeer scene capable switches it is very easy to have the lights behave differently with local control vs motion control. We use a top press and hold to turn the lights on to default level and disable motion control with them on and a bottom press and hold to turn them off and disable motion control. A top double tap turns them on to full brightness, a bottom double tap returns them to default levels. I use a group of virtual devices to allow me to fine tune the default levels.

    I use Easy Trigger schedules, because they are.... EASY

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  • mylestec
    replied
    Thanks again for everyone's help on this.... I've now got a basic working setup... still room for improvement. I wound up using a virtual event as a reference:

    Click image for larger version

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    The events reference that virtual device:

    Click image for larger version

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    Now all that needs to be done is figure out a way to override the motion sensor if the dimmer is manually triggered. I think Stuart eludes to this, but I'm not sure I follow.

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  • Stuart
    replied
    Hi,
    been doing this for a while. I have two devices light brightness by motion and light brightness by user.

    I have three events that set both levels at 6 am, 10 am and 10 pm. They don't actually change the light, they are only references.
    Then since the switch has instant status I turn on the light either by user or motion and and the three events take care of the levels. And the changes are not dependent of the change of midnight.
    motion can be set to be dimmer than the pressing of the switch if I need more light. I use easytrigger to set the light level to the brightness devices.

    6 am is set to motion 20 user 35
    10 am set to motion74 user 75
    10pm set to motion 20 user 28


    Stuart


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  • mylestec
    replied
    Cheers guys.... you've all given me a bunch of possible solutions to my predicament. I will start experimenting and post back which route I wind up taking.

    Leave a comment:

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