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    Constructing a series of events for motion controlled lighting

    This thread is going to be a beginning to end construction of a set of events for motion controlled lighting. The goals of these events are:
    • Turning lights on when someone enters the room
    • Keeping the lights on as long as there is motion in the room
    • Turn the lights off at a predetermined length of time after the room is no longer occupied
    • Enable motion controlled lighting only during evening and night hours and disable it when there is adequate ambient light
    • Provide a simple means of disabling motion controlled lighting to:
      1. Prevent the lights from automatically coming on when entering the room
      2. Prevent the lights from automatically turning off when the room is no longer occupied
    • Provide a simple means of re-enabling motion control
    These events will provide examples of the usage of:
    • Timers
    • Counters
    • Virtual Devices


    First we need to create two virtual devices. The first "Motion Control Dusk-Dawn", is a control to allow the motion control of lighting to be limited to times when there is actual need for additional light in the rooms. There is a condition of "Nighttime" which is valid from Sunset to Sunrise, but in actual use, there is a period before sunset and after sunrise where there is not enough ambient light to filter in to interior rooms. So we want to enable motion control 30-60 minutes before sunset and keep it enabled 30-60 minutes after sunrise. There are no event conditions that will handle this. Here is a list of all of the time conditions available:





    What is missing is "The time is after this before sunset" where you could plug in your 30-60 minute dusk "buffer" in the condition. Similarly there is no condition "the time is before this after sunrise". The absence of these two conditions make a virtual device the easiest way to implement the Dusk-Dawn timing. Once created and controlled, this one virtual device can be used in many events.

    The second virtual device we need is used to disable motion control for a lighting group. One of these devices needs to be created for each lighting zone that uses a single motion detector. In this case the lighting group is in an exercise room, so we'll name its control "Exercise Motion Control".

    Here are the step by step instructions for creating a virtual device. At the top right of the device manager page are a series of icons. As in the Event Management page the "+" symbol indicates adding a new device.





    You are prompted to name the device.






    I named the first of mine Interior Motion Dusk-Dawn.






    Click on Submit and you will have a normal looking single device configuration page where you can give "Floor and "Room" assignments to the device.






    In my installation I chose to use "Functional Group" and "Room" for my Label 2 and Label 1 respectively. In some of the following screenshots you will see that new label.





    You can change those labels in HomeSeer Setup under the Custom tab.






    I assigned a Functional Group "Lighting" and a Room "Motion Controls". You can chose your own naming conventions and labels to suit your own organizational requirements. I have made my decisions on how I want to be able to filter devices within the Device Manager as well as how they are represented in the HSTouch Default Projects. You can change the labels at any time and you can reorganize your devices within those labels individually or as groups of devices.






    Then create the second device which is used to enable or disable motion control on an individual light. That device is created in the same way as the first device. Then you will see your two new devices in your Device Manager, here filtered on Motion Controls. If you notice, your virtual devices look like any other physical device, with ON-OFF controls, status text and status graphics.


    Last edited by randy; September 18, 2015, 10:08 PM.
    HS4 Pro, 4.2.19.16 Windows 10 pro, Supermicro LP Xeon

    #2
    In many cases the standard Status Graphics of a virtual device can be improved upon to more accurately show their function. A light bulb really doesnt give a good representation of a control device. Here is a screenshot of a production system, filtered on motion controls. There is a virtual device to disable controls on all 6 of my motion controlled lights. You will notice in the screenshot, there are different Device Status graphics as well as a custom device image assigned to each of the virtual devices. This really helps identify the device type and status when looking at the Device Manager web page as well as with the HSTouch default project pictured below.






    Virtual devices do not have a default device image. The device image is added on the Configuration tab. Use the select Device Image button and you can browse to images to select. The default location for device images is under your HomeSeer root directory then html\images\Devices. You can use one you find there or capture your own and store it in a folder under your HomeSeer installation. It would be good practice to create your own directory for any custom device images you use such as html\images\CustomDevices. The Device Image used in this example was grabbed through a Google Images search.







    You can change the status graphics on the corresponding tab. You can also change the text to be "Enabled" and "Disabled" or anything else instead of the standard "On" and "Off" text. The default location for Status Graphics images is under your HomeSeer root directory then html\images\HomeSeer\status. You can use one of the images HomeSeer provides with the installation or you can capture your own and put them in a folder under the HomeSeer installation. Again it would be good practice to create your own directory for any custom status images you use such as html\images\HomeSeer\CustomStatus. This will segregate your custom images from the default images provided by HomeSeer. The Status Graphics used for these virtual devices were already provided with the HomeSeer installation.

    Before




    After replacing the light bulb Status Graphics images with motion graphics that were provided with the HomeSeer installation.





    The below screenshot shows what the custom Status Image graphics and group organization provides with the default project in HSTouch.





    The Dusk-Dawn virtual device is controlled by two events. The purpose of the control is to enable motion control of lights before sunset as it begins to get dark and to keep them enabled after sunset until the ambient light from the windows is enough to negate the need for additional lights. The events below enable that device 1 hour before sunset and disable it 1 hour after sunrise. You can change the timing to what works best for you. Our Motion controlled lights are in the basement and in outbuildings with small windows. I use this device as a condition in all of my Motion Control ON events for lighting.



    Last edited by randy; August 2, 2018, 08:35 AM. Reason: rebuilding post
    HS4 Pro, 4.2.19.16 Windows 10 pro, Supermicro LP Xeon

    Comment


      #3
      Now we'll start building events. There will be a number of events to accomplish these actions and we will need one timer, one counter and the two virtual devices created above. The function will follow these rules
      • When you enter the room between dusk and dawn, the lights will come on and stay on until 15 minutes after you leave the room.
      • The motion control can be disabled in two ways
        1. Turning the switch ON-OFF-ON within 2 seconds will leave the lights on with motion control suspended
        2. Turning the switch ON-OFF will leave the lights off with the motion controls suspended
      • If the lights are on for more than three seconds, motion control is restored when they are turned off


      Lets build the Lights ON by Motion Control event. It is a straight forward event if the motion detector in that room goes to Motion, the event is triggered. Then we add two conditions, the first checks to see if motion control is enabled for that zone and the second checks to make sure it is within the Dusk-Dawn time constraints created above. Both of those conditions just look at the virtual devices and makes sure they are both ON.

      The first action is to Remove Delayed Device Actions for this lighting zone. Our off event will be creating a Delayed Device Action to turn the lights off, so this action will remove any of those that might have been created by recent entries and exits into this control zone where manual control of the lights might be used and will assure that the lights are not turned off while the room is occupied. We'll discuss the Delayed Device action further in the next event. The second action turns the lights on.



      The next is another straightforward event to turn the lights off after the room is no longer occupied after a 15 minute delay. You can adjust that delay to suit your needs, 5 minutes is probably adequate, but we like to use 15. This event is triggered when the zones motion detector changes to No Motion. There is one condition in this event where it looks at the Motion Control virtual device for this zone to make sure it is enabled. Again in this device the first action is to Remove Delayed Device Actions for this lighting zone. This assures us that the 15 minute delay is reset when the motion detector goes to no motion. It is redundant to the same action in the ON event and the ON event should have removed any Delayed Device Actions, but it doesnt hurt to check again. The second action is what creates a new Delayed Device Action to turn the lights off after 15 minutes. When you put a delay on an action in HomeSeer, the event completes and creates a single event that is triggered to run exactly at the time dictated in the delay. This new Delayed Device Action event is designed to remove itself after running. It is also placed in a dynamically created event group for Delayed Actions. The first action above to Remove Delayed Device Actions will look in that folder and delete any events referencing the referenced device.





      Now we have two events, one to turn the light on when we enter and another to turn the lights off 15 minutes after we leave the zone.


      Next we will create the control events that let us enable and disable the motion control. The first event will be to count the on actions of the switch. We will need a timer and a counter for this event. We will call them Exercise Lights Timer and Exercise Lights Counter. Counters and timers can be created within the event or on a separate page available under Tools > Global Variables, Counters and Timers. It is easier to just create them on the fly as you are building your event. Counters and timers, by design, are to be controlled within events. Timers always advance or count up. A timer has 4 controls within an event
      • Set Timer allows you to set a timer to a certain value
      • Restart Timer this will set it to 0 and start it running
      • Stop Timer this will stop it at its current value
      • Resume Timer this will start the timer running without resetting it. It will begin running from the value currently stored in the timer. If the timer is already running, it has no effect.
      A counter has 6 controls within an event
      • Increment Counter will increase the counters value by 1
      • Decrement Counter will decrease the counters value by 1
      • Increment Counter by - allows you to increase the counter by a specific value
      • Decrement Counter by - allows you to decrease the counter by a specific value
      • Reset Counter sets the counter to 0
      • Set Counter to - allows you to set the counter to a specific value
      Well use the event to create the timer. If you notice on the expanded event there are buttons to Create/Edit Timers.





      If you click on the button you will be presented with a popup allowing you to choose an existing timer, rename an existing timer or to create a new one. We created a new timer Exercise Lights Timer




      Likewise we create a counter named Exercise Lights Counter



      Finally we have an event that is triggered each time the lights in that zone are turned on. When it is triggered we Resume the timer and increment the counter. This event allows to count the number of times the switch is turned on and makes sure the timer is running.




      A similar event is used for the light switch being turned off, but a condition is added to make sure motion control is enabled for this zone before it is allowed to resume the timer and increment the counter. It is the same counter as above, we are only counting switch changes, we dont care whether it is off or on.




      Now we build an event to utilize the timer and counter to let the system decide what to do. The trigger is when the timer reaches 2 seconds. It looks at the counter to make sure it is more than 1. If the counter is higher than 1, meaning the switch has changed at least twice within a 2 second period. If it is triggered and the condition is met, it turns Motion Control for this zone off and it removes Delayed Device Actions for the lights. If we have turned the lights ON-OFF-ON within 2 seconds, the Motion Control is disabled and any Delayed Device Actions are removed. The result is that the lights are on and will stay on, regardless of motion or lack thereof. . If we turn the lights ON-OFF within 2 seconds, the Motion Control is disabled, with the lights off.




      Now we need to reset the timer and counter to get them ready for the next time. Regardless of whether the light is turned off or on or how many times, we want to stop the timer and reset it if it passes 2 seconds. We also want to reset the counter.




      The final event will restore Motion Control of the lights. It is triggered by the lights being turned off. The first condition checks to make sure the timer is not running. The second checks to see if the Motion Control virtual device is off. If both of the conditions are true, we know that the motion control has been disabled and that we are not in a counting cycle on the switch. The event will enable Motion Controls for the lights again if you turn them off as you leave the room.





      There is the whole gamut of events. A word of caution, we have the timing on these events very tight because we know the latency of our system. If your system is slower because of the server, device control interface or any other reason, you can add 1 or 2 seconds to each of the timer values used in these events. They will still work fine. You need to add the same amount to each of the events that look at the timer.


      These events are meant to provide ideas for designing events. You are free to copy them and use them exactly as they are or use elements of them to help you solve other problems. Feel free to discuss the events presented and/or offer other ways to accomplish the same goals. At the very least we hope these events will stimulate thought and conversation.
      Last edited by randy; August 5, 2019, 07:04 PM.
      HS4 Pro, 4.2.19.16 Windows 10 pro, Supermicro LP Xeon

      Comment


        #4
        Super helpful as always Randy!

        I am into day three of my HS2 to HS3 conversion (only possible because of the long weekend!)

        Keep up the good work.

        I enjoyed your Alaska photos as well.

        Rob in Maine

        Comment


          #5
          I was wondering what you use for the address for a virtual device. I'm using the Insteon plugin and it won't allow a device to be created with a blank address field.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Bill Grant View Post
            I was wondering what you use for the address for a virtual device. I'm using the Insteon plugin and it won't allow a device to be created with a blank address field.
            The virtual device in HomeSeer does not require an address. I arbitrarily assign an address of control1, cotrol2, etc. to the devices. I don't use the Insteon plug-n, but I cannot see it having anything to do with a HomeSeer virtual device as they are not created in the Insteon interface.

            HomeSeer events and controls use the Device Reference ID which are created automatically as devices are created. They are unique and as such addresses and device codes have little value in HomeSeer. Since device codes have been deprecated, I would like to see a column for device Reference ID in the device manager since the Reference ID is the bets way to positively identify devices for replacement variables.
            HS4 Pro, 4.2.19.16 Windows 10 pro, Supermicro LP Xeon

            Comment


              #7
              Excellent write up! So glad you are doing this. One suggestion though is that many (myself included) use x10 rf motion sensors that send both motion and no motion signals. It is a little bit of a different setup with the no-motion being sent by the motion sensor, rather than the time based switch that you have.

              I only mention this since these x10RF MS are so popular, and following your examples exactly will cause some minor problems if the motion sensor is sending the no-motion signal.

              Thanks again for the excellent write up!
              _______________________________________________

              HS3 : HSpro (3.0.0.460) on Win2012 (vm on ESXi)
              Plugins: HSTouch, UPBSpud, Kinect, Nest, IFTTT, DirecTV, EasyTrigger, Imperihome, Zwave, RFXcom, UltraMon3, UltraWeatherBug3, UltraGCIR3, UltraLog3, UltraPioneer, PHLocation, Pushover, Pushalot, MCSSPrinklers S, JowiHue
              Jon00 Plugins: Bluetooth Proximity, Performance Monitor, DB Chart, Links

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by jlrichar View Post
                Excellent write up! So glad you are doing this. One suggestion though is that many (myself included) use x10 rf motion sensors that send both motion and no motion signals. It is a little bit of a different setup with the no-motion being sent by the motion sensor, rather than the time based switch that you have.

                I only mention this since these x10RF MS are so popular, and following your examples exactly will cause some minor problems if the motion sensor is sending the no-motion signal.

                Thanks again for the excellent write up!
                I don't have X-10, but we discussed this in another thread. Z-Wave devices also send Motion and No Motion status. Each time the Lights off by NO Motion event is triggered, it resets the 15 minute timer. The only time that event is triggered is when the motion detector changes and becomes No Motion, just as the ON event is triggered by the device changing and becoming Motion. As I understand it the X-10 devices differ in that they will continually send a set to motion (not a change to motion) about once every 15 seconds. If I am understanding that correctly, these events should work fine with X-10.

                Can you explain why the events wouldn't work with X-10?
                HS4 Pro, 4.2.19.16 Windows 10 pro, Supermicro LP Xeon

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by rprade View Post

                  Now we build an event to utilize the timer and counter to let the system decide what to do. The trigger is when the timer reaches 2 seconds. It looks at the counter to make sure it is more than 1. If the counter is higher than 1, meaning the switch has changed at least twice within a 2 second period. If it is triggered and the condition is met, it turns Motion Control for this zone off and it removes Delayed Device Actions for the lights. If we have turned the lights ON-OFF-ON within 2 seconds, the Motion Control is disabled and any Delayed Device Actions are removed. The result is that the lights are on and will stay on, regardless of motion or lack thereof. . If we turn the lights ON-OFF within 2 seconds, the Motion Control is disabled, with the lights off.
                  With this your disabling manually the whole functionality of the lights? I thought that the system would know when ligthing was needed....
                  Hector
                  ____________________________________
                  Win.2003 OS, HS3
                  BLDSC,BLstat,BLRadar,BLRamdom,BLOccupied
                  BLups,BLrain8,HSTouch,Ultrajones Weatherbug,
                  MyTrigger,ACRF2,W800,Zwave
                  AP800,Honeywell Stat

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Rotech View Post
                    With this your disabling manually the whole functionality of the lights? I thought that the system would know when ligthing was needed....
                    It serves two purposes. If you want to disable the automatic motion controlled lighting lighting for any reason. Here are two cases
                    • The lighting in that exercise room is fluorescent overhead lighting which is great for exercising, folding laundry, etc, but much too harsh and bright when I am at my desk in the corner of that room. When I am at the desk I use more direct and local lighting. Also when I am at my desk I often don't move enough to trigger the motion detector as I am sitting in a tall backed chair with my back to the detector. If I turn the overhead lights on then off within 2 seconds, Motion will no longer turn them on.
                    • If I am doing an activity like sitting at the desk and I want the overhead lights to stay on and I wont be moving enough to trigger motion, turning the light ON-OFF-ON within 2 seconds will disable the automatic OFF function after 15 minutes of no motion.


                    It just gives you more flexibility. I frequently use the ON-OFF in the exercise room so that I can work at the desk sometimes for hours, without the motion controlled lights turning on when I do move enough to trigger motion.

                    I also frequently use the ON-OFF-ON pattern in the workshop and in the shed because I may be working just outside the doors of the buildings and out of range of the motion sensors, but I want the lights to stay on.

                    For 99% of the time we enter a room with the motion triggering the ON function, then manually turn the lights off as we leave. For the remaining 1% of the time we like having the flexibility of overriding automation.

                    Lastly, this was presented as an exercise in providing secondary control functions from primary control devices, using counters, timers and virtual devices.

                    Another use for counters and timers: We use several Aeotec Minimotes around the house. They offer 8 basic controls with 4 buttons. Each responds to a short press or a long press. Using counter and timer logic like was illustrated above each button now has 3 functions, a short press, a double press (pressing twice within two seconds) and a long press. Pressing a button once turns a light on to a preset level. Pressing the button again raises the brightness. Pressing twice within 2 seconds lowers the brightness. Pressing and holding turns the light off. In our living room button 1 is my reading light, button 2 is my wife's reading light, button 3 are the rooms track lights and button 4 is a corner pole lamp.

                    The best automation is that which provides control flexoibility in your household. The thing that will provide a high WAF is consistency of controls, so when I need override logic on one motion control, I provide the same override capabilities on all of them.
                    HS4 Pro, 4.2.19.16 Windows 10 pro, Supermicro LP Xeon

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by rprade View Post
                      I don't have X-10, but we discussed this in another thread. Z-Wave devices also send Motion and No Motion status. Each time the Lights off by NO Motion event is triggered, it resets the 15 minute timer. The only time that event is triggered is when the motion detector changes and becomes No Motion, just as the ON event is triggered by the device changing and becoming Motion. As I understand it the X-10 devices differ in that they will continually send a set to motion (not a change to motion) about once every 15 seconds. If I am understanding that correctly, these events should work fine with X-10.

                      Can you explain why the events wouldn't work with X-10?
                      Thanks for explaining your logic. It does seem like this system would work with either type of MS. Though if the MS sends the no-motion is it not better to use that? There are many ways to create these events, and you have some top notch examples here that really try to anticipate most problems. Most of us that have tried to create "simple" events to turn lights on based on motion quickly realize that there is nothing simple about it.

                      You have one feature that I do not have in my events, the timers to enable/disable motion sensors with mutliple taps. Though, I am making use of group conditions for events that handle lights that get turned on differently at different times of the day. For example during the day only a few are turned on by motion and those are in a group called "lights day on". I also have "Evening lights on" and "Night lights on". Lights that turn on in the evening lights group are basically 30 minutes prior to sunset to 10pm and turn lights on to fully light a room. Night lighting is from 10pm to sunrise and turn on night lighting levels for most rooms to preserve sleepiness.

                      I also now have virutalized room occupancy and use that instead of motion/no motion to turn on lights. In this way I can use other connected devices in addition to motion sensors to say that a room is occupied. For example if a light is turned on prior to the motion detector sensing motion the virtual device for that room will be occupied. If the DirecTV is on then that room is considered occupied as well. Though if you do something like this you should only use devices that you do not want homeseer to turn off if you leave the room, or that do not reflect occupancy well.

                      One problem I seem to have had for months across many versions of HS3 (currently on the latest beta) is my system does not seem to reliably execute events for more than a few days. Most events will run, then sort of become stale and stop running. I can see that the trigger conditions were met, but nothing is actioned. Rebooting HS3 will usually restore functionality. Though sometimes I need to recreate the event. Its been this way for many many versions.
                      _______________________________________________

                      HS3 : HSpro (3.0.0.460) on Win2012 (vm on ESXi)
                      Plugins: HSTouch, UPBSpud, Kinect, Nest, IFTTT, DirecTV, EasyTrigger, Imperihome, Zwave, RFXcom, UltraMon3, UltraWeatherBug3, UltraGCIR3, UltraLog3, UltraPioneer, PHLocation, Pushover, Pushalot, MCSSPrinklers S, JowiHue
                      Jon00 Plugins: Bluetooth Proximity, Performance Monitor, DB Chart, Links

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by jlrichar View Post
                        Thanks for explaining your logic. It does seem like this system would work with either type of MS. Though if the MS sends the no-motion is it not better to use that?
                        I use No Motion to trigger the Delayed Device action that turns the lights off in the "Lights OFF by No Motion" event
                        There are many ways to create these events, and you have some top notch examples here that really try to anticipate most problems. Most of us that have tried to create "simple" events to turn lights on based on motion quickly realize that there is nothing simple about it.

                        You have one feature that I do not have in my events, the timers to enable/disable motion sensors with mutliple taps. Though, I am making use of group conditions for events that handle lights that get turned on differently at different times of the day. For example during the day only a few are turned on by motion and those are in a group called "lights day on". I also have "Evening lights on" and "Night lights on". Lights that turn on in the evening lights group are basically 30 minutes prior to sunset to 10pm and turn lights on to fully light a room. Night lighting is from 10pm to sunrise and turn on night lighting levels for most rooms to preserve sleepiness.

                        I also now have virutalized room occupancy and use that instead of motion/no motion to turn on lights. In this way I can use other connected devices in addition to motion sensors to say that a room is occupied. For example if a light is turned on prior to the motion detector sensing motion the virtual device for that room will be occupied. If the DirecTV is on then that room is considered occupied as well. Though if you do something like this you should only use devices that you do not want homeseer to turn off if you leave the room, or that do not reflect occupancy well.

                        One problem I seem to have had for months across many versions of HS3 (currently on the latest beta) is my system does not seem to reliably execute events for more than a few days. Most events will run, then sort of become stale and stop running. I can see that the trigger conditions were met, but nothing is actioned. Rebooting HS3 will usually restore functionality. Though sometimes I need to recreate the event. Its been this way for many many versions.
                        You have some great ideas and that is the purpose of this forum - to share ideas and stimulate thought. If you want to take the time to write up how you handle room occupancy and share it here, I'm sure it would find an eager audience.

                        As far as slowness in your system, that is one of the toughest things to find. You have to try to narrow it down to a specific interface or possibly one of your plug-ins is adding cumulative processes that slow down the server. Sometimes you have to watch the log in real time, disable plug-ins one at a time and/or disable event triggered scripts that might be consuming resources. In my opinion Windows HomeSeer 3 requires 2gb of ram to run so I think the minimum configuration should be 4gb. It also can consume 100% of the cycles of a single 3+ghz core, so I think the minimum configuration should be a dual core at 3ghz or more. When mine was on an Atom D510 it would get very sluggish from time to time. Now it is on a VM with 4 virtual cores of a 3.2ghz Xeon assigned and 4gb or RAM and it never gets sluggish.
                        HS4 Pro, 4.2.19.16 Windows 10 pro, Supermicro LP Xeon

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I am a big fan of the concept of multiple taps to use any light switch as a homeseer controller!

                          The requirement, though, for instant status is a problem. Neither Cooper nor Leviton "bottom tap" switches fit in with our other switches, and so the pseudo-instant status of the GE/Jasco devices is what we are left with.

                          But, I can't get that working. Is it alive with the latest Zwave beta? Are there any steps that need to be taken to enable it, or debug it?

                          Best regards
                          Doug

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by DMcKnight View Post
                            I am a big fan of the concept of multiple taps to use any light switch as a homeseer controller!

                            The requirement, though, for instant status is a problem. Neither Cooper nor Leviton "bottom tap" switches fit in with our other switches, and so the pseudo-instant status of the GE/Jasco devices is what we are left with.

                            But, I can't get that working. Is it alive with the latest Zwave beta? Are there any steps that need to be taken to enable it, or debug it?

                            Best regards
                            Doug
                            It is my understanding that multiple taps of the same switch was fixed in one of the last few betas. My motion controlled lights are all on Jasco binary switches, so I chose the ON-OFF-ON pattern. I haven't tried the Cooper single button switches but in one of the other threads someone said they had success with double taps. I think it was about the time of beta .187 release.
                            HS4 Pro, 4.2.19.16 Windows 10 pro, Supermicro LP Xeon

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Hmm, I did try on-off-on as well as double tap. The event's fine, as I can get it to trigger by controlling the device over the HS interface, but it seems that the status isn't being updated from the switch.

                              I wonder if I need to try a newer switch? These ones are pretty old by now... Maybe they're running code that's too old.

                              I am using the most recent Zwave beta.

                              I'd really like to get this working. It offers a load of high WAF possibilities.

                              Doug

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