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    Modulating condenser / furnace and thermostats

    Hi,

    My current HVAC is sending me some not so subtle signals it's time to start thinking about the replacement. I want a modulating furnace and condenser but from what I have found unless you use the OEM communicating stat it's a waste of money. Does anyone have experience with an OEM communicating stat and afore mentioned equipment and then gaining any control over it with Homeseer? Right now it's sort of looks like SOL to me. I did have a comment from my HVAC guy that Rheem opens their stat to 3rd party developers but I can't find anything about that either.

    -rick
    -Rick

    #2
    I have the carrier infinity furnace and you are correct, without its stat, it's a waste of money to spend.

    That being said, I use inifinitude to connect HS to my furnace (basically is a proxy to intercept the wifi). I built a script to do the work and for the most part it works well.

    I made a thread a couple years ago that described it in detail, but not near my computer. Search for infinitude and Homeseer and you'll find the thread.

    Comment


      #3
      Thanks, I found the thread. Not sure I can duplicate but will take some time to study it a bit. Guess simple and modulating ain't going to happen.

      Like this quote from the Infintude site:

      "With any luck, Carrier will allow the owners of these devices and data direct access rather than this ridiculous work around. If you have one of these thermostats, tell Carrier you'd like direct network access to your thermostat, or at the very least, access to a public API!"
      -Rick

      Comment


        #4
        What do you want HS to be able to do?
        Mike____________________________________________________________ __________________
        HS3 Pro Edition 3.0.0.548, NUC i3

        HW: Stargate | NX8e | CAV6.6 | Squeezebox | PCS | WGL 800RF | RFXCOM | Vantage Pro | Green-Eye | Edgeport/8 | Way2Call | Ecobee3 | EtherRain | Ubiquiti

        Comment


          #5
          This may be out in left field but have you thought about a ground source heat pump? Modulating furnaces can be pricey and as has been noted you can't easily control them with HS. Also I'm just not a fan of proprietary technology in general. I'm not familiar with the rebates and so forth in IL but here in MA there would be a strong return on investment case for a GSHP and it could be controlled with any off the shelf Z-Wave thermostat.

          Also you might want to look into the actual value of a modulating furnace over a regular 96% model. It may be that you wouldn't reach ROI during the lifespan of the unit. The real deal closer though for a modulating furnace with an ECM blower is that they do keep temperatures more consistent. I personally don't care about that though because if you're having temperature fluctuations that you can actually perceive you need more insulation and air sealing. You need to buy new HVAC equipment every 15-20 years. You only need to buy insulation once and your bills are lower to boot.
          Originally posted by rprade
          There is no rhyme or reason to the anarchy a defective Z-Wave device can cause

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by rmorton27 View Post
            I want a modulating furnace and condenser but from what I have found unless you use the OEM communicating stat it's a waste of money.
            I was under the impression that conventional ducting will also negate much of the added benefit from these furnaces. Is that correct?
            Mike____________________________________________________________ __________________
            HS3 Pro Edition 3.0.0.548, NUC i3

            HW: Stargate | NX8e | CAV6.6 | Squeezebox | PCS | WGL 800RF | RFXCOM | Vantage Pro | Green-Eye | Edgeport/8 | Way2Call | Ecobee3 | EtherRain | Ubiquiti

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Uncle Michael View Post
              I was under the impression that conventional ducting will also negate much of the added benefit from these furnaces. Is that correct?
              If the installer was careless and used rules of thumb then this could be the case. If the ductwork was installed intelligently with proper planning then it should be fine. Now..... how often do I see properly commissioned ductwrok? Not so much.
              Originally posted by rprade
              There is no rhyme or reason to the anarchy a defective Z-Wave device can cause

              Comment


                #8
                Wow covering a lot of ground...

                No groundwater source nor can it be an option for me... HOA I do worry about the increasing complexity the mfgs are deploying to squeeze more from the equipment.

                The point to me for wanting modulation has nothing to do with ROI but I hate humidity. So with modulation, the "promise" is the equipment s figures out the sweet spot for matching demand for heat removal so it runs near continuously. This presumably increases the amount of moisture we can condense from the air stream to lower the inside RH% I do have a http://www.thermastor.com/ UltraAire for more whole house dehumidifcation right now independent of a/c and is that's managed by HS3. It works okay, but since I'm getting the message from the existing equipment its on its way out (amp is at max on compressor nameplate and the compressor starts hard with a lot of commotion that it didn't have. The refrigerant level checks out, etc, etc, etc and has hard start kit too. So just early shopping. More even temps on both sides is attractive too.

                Concerning ducts and the home's envelope in general. I agree a lot of duct work is for c$rap and mine included. In our part of the world, they allowed panned returns and 30 years ago I wasn't smart enough to care about duct work in general. Accordingly have spent a lot of time working on sealing the ducts from application of mastic and tape to new sheet metal to using a firm called Aeroseal that uses a technology created (as I recall)at Berkley and it made a big improvement in our HVAC duct performance (before and after measurements) of CFM at supply and return ducts And we did all the normal sealing stuff including air tight trims for all recessed cans and we got total the air changes down to a good number.

                About what I want HS to do is just looking for changing set points, HVAC mode, fan etc. I would like to be able to know at what "stage" the furnace or condenser is running but that would be a bonus.

                I agree I hate proprietary but I'm in quandary and just looking for ideas.
                -Rick

                Comment


                  #9
                  Given the circumstances (I went through a similar process about 5 years ago), I'd go for the highest efficiency unit that does not depend on proprietary control signals form the thermostat. You can spend the differential to work with someone who is knowledgeable, ethical, and capable of correctly sizing the system to your needs.
                  Mike____________________________________________________________ __________________
                  HS3 Pro Edition 3.0.0.548, NUC i3

                  HW: Stargate | NX8e | CAV6.6 | Squeezebox | PCS | WGL 800RF | RFXCOM | Vantage Pro | Green-Eye | Edgeport/8 | Way2Call | Ecobee3 | EtherRain | Ubiquiti

                  Comment


                    #10
                    My house was built in 2008 and rated "Energy Star Efficient", which I am slowly learning means absolutely nothing. Our heater died 3 years ago (so less than 10 years old) and I hated the noise it made when running.

                    Our ducting is crap too, you would think these days they would start being more concerned about static pressures and normal air flow, but ducting is put in after the fact and never considered in planning.

                    My main reason for going with modulated was consistent air movement (i leave the thing running 24/7 at low speed with negligible power usage because of the DC motor) and it never really runs full blast unless for some reason it has to play catch up on the temp, so its really quite, to the point you can hardly hear it running most of the time. We will never get an ROI on the unit because we will move out of this house in the next couple years, but I knew this buying it and did it more for comfort than anything else.

                    I have full control over the Carrier thermostat, but honestly, I let the heater do its own thing. It is connected to the net for the weather updates, and reacts accordingly and I have it programmed to do what it needs to do, and probably haven't touched the stat in 2 years (but it does look pretty on the wall).

                    The only control I use over it, is if the doors are left open, or the windows opened. I have a 2 minute timer on doors left open and it shuts the system off until the house is closed up again. My wife and I like to have the windows opened at night and this just automates everything. We also have a whole house fan tied to homeseer and the windows that are controlled based on the number of windows open and this adjusts the speed. Everything monitors the temps outside as well as inside and alerts us the optimal times to open or close up the house.

                    I agree with what was said above, if you have duct issues, spend the money to get those resolved, get modulation only for the comfort aspect and don't expect to get any real money return on it. Hell, for what I paid for ours, I could've had a really nice down payment on a new Harley.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      The whole proprietary thing is annoying, and as a person that generally hates what the mainstream world thinks is home automation (a bunch of apps all dependent on the phone the internet and the mfg web site) I'm guessing I may end up just settling but it's kind of discouraging...

                      -rick
                      -Rick

                      Comment


                        #12
                        If the main reason you want such a unit is to deal with humidity you don't need to worry. If you have a competent HVAC technician they will do a proper workup on the cooling needs of your house and spec a unit that will have enough run time to remove the humidity (latent heat). If the unit is oversized because the installer used rules of thumb or some such it will short cycle and you will have humidity issues. That is an improperly commissioned system and the contractor is answerable for it. They can be sued and would have to replace the system with a proper unit. Unfortunately this kind of thing happens all too often. When using an inverter compressor you don't have to worry as much as it will always run and will slow down when the demand is less. Still it's not any substitute for a properly commissioned system.

                        The moral of the story? Get any decent high efficiency system and get it installed by someone who not only knows what they're doing but also will take the time to do it. It may be useful to get a HERS rater or the like to do your heat load / gain calculations (Manual J) to make sure you're installer is doing it right.
                        Originally posted by rprade
                        There is no rhyme or reason to the anarchy a defective Z-Wave device can cause

                        Comment


                          #13
                          While I research my options for a new system. Here is a report on my duct performance after Aeroseal did their voodoo. To me it looks pretty good, but I'm no expert and wonder if those that know could make a comment?
                          Attached Files
                          -Rick

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