Dual Z-trollers

[randy]

I have looked at quite a number of threads ad can't seem to wrap my mind around this. With 2 Z-Trollers on an HS3 implementation - one on a com port and the second over Ethernet, how is the proper way to deploy the second controller.

I have a system working properly on the first Z-Troller on the com port. I can add the second controller via Ethernet just fine, but then what? Do I restore a backup from the primary to the new one, or is there a way to sync them? Can they be redundant - if one is not able to connect to a device will instructions be routed through the other? I am looking more for redundancy than coverage.

I guess what I am looking for is a design perspective on a second Z-Troller on the same network with HS3.

[vasrc]

Click on the "new" Zwave help link in the Plug-in Mgmt page, it explains how to add your second controller.

You first need to define "redundancy", there are several flavors. Auto & manual being the most common.
Redundancy isn't what multi controllers were designed for I don't think, more for additional/better coverage.
Why do you think you need redundancy?

To test, I just unplugged my primary on the test box and all hell broke loose on the Zwave network, so I would say no to automatic Redundancy Manual perhaps.

Part of the problem is HS needs to know which controller to send to (it will pick for you automatically if you select Auto, but once selected it's set), so if you lose that controller, you're going to get errors.
You could do manual redundancy if your controllers are both able to reach all of your devices and then manually set each of the devices to point to the working controller now. In reality this would probably be a lot more work than just having a spare controller laying around and a Zwave backup to restore from.

Overall, with the reliability of the Ztrollers, I wouldn't worry about redundancy.

You might also visit this thread if you're just staring out on Zwave:
http://board.homeseer.com/showthread...troller&page=3

Z

[NeverDie]

Is the setup for multiple z-trollers in HS3/HS3PRO different than the way it is in HS2PRO? I have no idea what I'll be facing, but I get the impression from reading that HS3 is intended to provide good support for multiple z-trollers.

Regarding the OP's conceptual query about redundancy: in HS2PRO, I had four z-trollers working, but wanted to extract one for experimentation purposes. I just took all the z-wave nodes which referenced the z-troller I wanted to extract and set them to point to whichever of the remaining 3 z-trollers I guessed they would reach the best. Then, all it took was one full optimization and I was able to excise the node I intended. Everything continued to work fine. Really. I doubt it would have worked as well, though, if I hadn't had at least some overlapping (redundant?) coverage.

I had more than one z-troller fail shortly after first purchasing them (fortunately, all were < 30 day failures), and for that reason I wanted a system that had "redundant" z-trollers. I may have just been unlucky with the batch I got, because I haven't had any z-troller failures since then (about 6 or so months ago).

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HS2PRO

[vasrc]

Multiple controllers are working pretty well for me now. Recovers from errors much cleaner now and VERY documented in the log
Overall, Zwave seems better behaved on HS3, or at a minimum better documented and more operational info available.
You can still "break" it, but you have to try a lot harder now

Be sure to read the Zwave help page, it explains how to install/sync them up.

Exactly, that's what I would call Manual redundancy, but like you said it requires both controller to be able to access the same devices.

I'll probably move over to the HS3 platform with Zwave in another month or two (longer if a new Ztroller is imminent). Waiting for some plugins to be Linux compatible as well.

Z

[Rick Tinker]

Multiple "interfaces" (not just Z-Trollers) is a feature from HS2 that ONLY allowed for better coverage and throughput on Z-Wave. In a large home, just because Z-Wave routes and should be able to get a frame to the intended target, does not mean that it is always successful or that it happens very quickly. In newer versions of Z-Wave devices and in interfaces we are working to support right now, Sigma designs fixed the routing to make it much, much more reliable. However, the issue of it taking multiple hops and that taking time is still there. If it takes 4 hops through other nodes to get a signal to the destination, then that takes a relatively long time, and other commands do not take place during that time which means everything gets a little 'backed up'.

Multiple interfaces solve this. Once it is added to the system, the properties page (Z-Wave tab) on a Z-Wave device changes to add the ability for you to select which Z-Wave interface should be used for that device. You can even have HomeSeer calculate which one to use based upon which interface gets a response faster. Now, with multiple interfaces, commands get transmitted directly (no routing) and it is possible for multiple interfaces to be transmitting at once (of course with RF that does not help much because of mid-air collisions, but it helps some).

In HS3 we have the added feature of additional interfaces being for other NETWORKS entirely. Now you can have a remote (Ethernet) interface in a vacation home, and all of the nodes there can be on their own network but still managed by your HomeSeer system back home. People in Europe who may have cheaper alternatives for Z-Wave devices in the North American market can now purchase devices for multiple frequencies and have an interface for each one (providing the frequency range is allowed in their country by their governing bodies). Hotel owners can even have an interface per suite or floor making it possible for the 232 node limit to be extended through multiple networks.

[randy]

Click on the "new" Zwave help link in the Plug-in Mgmt page, it explains how to add your second controller.

I looked at that link, but it really doesn't tell me what to do after adding the second controller. The k=link says you can add it, but not what to do after it is added. Is it just a transceiver or does node information need to be synchronized to it? If the network needs to be replicated to the second controller how is the best way to do it?

....
Why do you think you need redundancy?

because my first Z-troller failed within a few days and my second has had a number of occasions where the log says it has become disconnected, yet the serial connections are solid and the same as the ones on the first which never exhibited this failure. The first Z-troller locked up on the display saying "add" at all times, even after powering down, resetting and erasing. It would not add or delete nodes, but it continued reliably communicating with the network. The replacement frequently drops communication.

...

Part of the problem is HS needs to know which controller to send to (it will pick for you automatically if you select Auto, but once selected it's set), so if you lose that controller, you're going to get errors.
You could do manual redundancy if your controllers are both able to reach all of your devices and then manually set each of the devices to point to the working controller now. In reality this would probably be a lot more work than just having a spare controller laying around and a Zwave backup to restore from.

Overall, with the reliability of the Ztrollers, I wouldn't worry about redundancy.

You might also visit this thread if you're just staring out on Zwave:
http://board.homeseer.com/showthread...troller&page=3

Z

The above link doesn't work. The backup plan you describe is my current plan. I may deploy the second controller in a second location in my smallish house for coverage, then use a backup/restore plan if one of the controllers should fail.

[NeverDie]

Much more than anything else, it was HomeSeer's implementation of multiple z-wave interfaces that sold me on buying HomeSeer. In my mind it stands out as HomeSeer's crown jewel. It's a pity more people didn't avail themselves of it in HS2PRO, but I'm guessing a much larger number of people will try it in HS3 and then wonder how they ever lived without it. For legacy z-wave devices like the ones I have, the speed and reliability improvements are very noticeable.

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HS2PRO

[randy]

...

Multiple interfaces solve this. Once it is added to the system, the properties page (Z-Wave tab) on a Z-Wave device changes to add the ability for you to select which Z-Wave interface should be used for that device. You can even have HomeSeer calculate which one to use based upon which interface gets a response faster. Now, with multiple interfaces, commands get transmitted directly (no routing) and it is possible for multiple interfaces to be transmitting at once (of course with RF that does not help much because of mid-air collisions, but it helps some).

I understand that concept, but remain unclear as to how to prepare the second controller, once it is added to Homeseer. There is discussion of synchronizing under HS2PRO, but I don't see it in HS3.

[randy]

Is the setup for multiple z-trollers in HS3/HS3PRO different than the way it is in HS2PRO? I have no idea what I'll be facing, but I get the impression from reading that HS3 is intended to provide good support for multiple z-trollers.

It is not at all the same as described for HS2PRO - at least as far as I can tell (unless I am missing the obvious). There is no sync function that I can find.

[NeverDie]

By the way, another advantage of redundancy is that if an "interface" (be it z-troller or otherwise) does fail, you can excise it as I describe above and keep running. If you then acquire a replacement for the failed interface, you don't have to waltz around adding z-wave nodes to it and otherwise mess-up your system. Instead, you add the replacement interface into the system, do an interface resync, manually re-point the z-wave nodes back to it, do a full optimization, and bang, you're done! i.e. pretty easy. Well, that's how it works in HS2PRO. I can't say whether it's the same in HS3, but I'm guessing it's similar (and maybe more automatic and easier).

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HS2PRO

[NeverDie]

It is not at all the same as described for HS2PRO - at least as far as I can tell (unless I am missing the obvious). There is no sync function that I can find.

Maybe it resync's automatically? Sorry, apparently my extrapolations from HS2PRO regarding this are off the mark, and so you deserve better than my guesses. Have you found any documentation that tells how to set up the multiple interfaces? If not, maybe Rick can delineate it here and/or put it in a sticky when he's back online? It wasn't until just recently (because of the HS3 arduino plug-in) that I had sufficient reason to learn about HS3, and it's sounding more and more like I'll be better off finding the right documentation for HS3 rather than just winging-it.

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HS2PRO

[vasrc]

I looked at that link, but it really doesn't tell me what to do after adding the second controller. The link says you can add it, but not what to do after it is added. Is it just a transceiver or does node information need to be synchronized to it? If the network needs to be replicated to the second controller how is the best way to do it?

If you followed the instructions, it should already be replicated. Once you:
"Select Move this interface to another Network. This will copy all information from the MAIN interface to this newly added on. This includes all node information and Home ID."

As far as what you do after that, really nothing, other than select which controller each device should talk to. If left at Auto, it will select for you when Optimized.

Syncronizing is easy in HS3, you just add the new device to the Primary and then Sychronize the other controllers afterwards. That way they now have the new node info.
If you Add a device from the plugin (only if it's close enough), it will auto-sync it for you (or at least it used to).

One question I had as well, was whether it makes sense to Optimize the Second controller (well actually, what are the Optimize guidelines for multi controllers), I'd like to hear that answer.

Z

[randy]

If you followed the instructions, it should already be replicated. Once you:
"Select Move this interface to another Network. This will copy all information from the MAIN interface to this newly added on. This includes all node information and Home ID."

Thanks, it was my failure to expand the help topic to see the instructions you were referring to.

As far as what you do after that, really nothing, other than select which controller each device should talk to. If left at Auto, it will select for you when Optimized.

Syncronizing is easy in HS3, you just add the new device to the Primary and then Sychronize the other controllers afterwards. That way they now have the new node info.
If you Add a device from the plugin (only if it's close enough), it will auto-sync it for you (or at least it used to).

One question I had as well, was whether it makes sense to Optimize the Second controller (well actually, what are the Optimize guidelines for multi controllers), I'd like to hear that answer.

Z

+1

[randy]

If you followed the instructions, it should already be replicated. Once you:
"Select Move this interface to another Network. This will copy all information from the MAIN interface to this newly added on. This includes all node information and Home ID."

OK I went back and attempted again. When I added the interface, I got only what is shown in the first screenshot below.

The checkmark to "Make this the MAIN interface" cannot be unchecked.

Under the dropdown for Actions: I get only the choices in the second screenshot.

There is no choice to "Move this interface to another Network"

[vasrc]

The Main controller should be set automatically, you shouldn't need to adjust it. When you add the #2 controller it should have automatically make the primary Main.

The Move command is only listed for NON-main controllers.

In this case, just open up your primary controller (Ztroller1)? and make it Main, and then do the Move cmd from the Remote controller
Sometimes the Plugin page doesn't always refresh, so if you don't see the Main move to the other controller, just reopen the Zwave plugin mgmt page.

Z