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  • #16
    Originally posted by jon00 View Post
    Take a look here and look very carefully down the list! (Many were written before HS3 could run on Linux).
    What am I looking very carefully for? I see you have "Script Connector" listed but no link. Is that the port of the one from Stipus? I've looked through this list before and visited your server. You have a lot of very cool and useful things.

    None of them are "newbie" friendly as in available in the plugin updater. Nor have a configuration interface. For those of you that have been using HS since HS1 and HS2 then your distribution model seems normal and the way it's done. For new people they may never even know about your scripts and worse have a hard time installing them and mess up their systems trying to do the install and creating a general sour mess.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by jeubanks View Post
      What am I looking very carefully for? I see you have "Script Connector" listed but no link. Is that the port of the one from Stipus? I've looked through this list before and visited your server. You have a lot of very cool and useful things.

      None of them are "newbie" friendly as in available in the plugin updater. Nor have a configuration interface. For those of you that have been using HS since HS1 and HS2 then your distribution model seems normal and the way it's done. For new people they may never even know about your scripts and worse have a hard time installing them and mess up their systems trying to do the install and creating a general sour mess.
      Yes, that's me, however there are reasons for that and because I'm one of the original tinkerers from HS1! If people can navigate Windows or Linux, they can certainly install a few files manually! Most of the stuff I write is for myself but make it freely available for others. I have no desire to follow the pack and you either come for the ride or you don't.

      There is no link to the Script Connector because it has not been posted as a project on the board, however it does a fair percentage of what the script connector does but only caters in VB.NET scripts. It is available on my site as it states at the top of the page.

      You may be interested at these threads:

      https://forums.homeseer.com/showthread.php?t=173569
      https://forums.homeseer.com/showthread.php?t=169785
      Jon

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by jon00 View Post
        Yes, that's me, however there are reasons for that and because I'm one of the original tinkerers from HS1! If people can navigate Windows or Linux, they can certainly install a few files manually! Most of the stuff I write is for myself but make it freely available for others. I have no desire to follow the pack and you either come for the ride or you don't.

        There is no link to the Script Connector because it has not been posted as a project on the board, however it does a fair percentage of what the script connector does but only caters in VB.NET scripts. It is available on my site as it states at the top of the page.

        You may be interested at these threads:

        https://forums.homeseer.com/showthread.php?t=173569
        https://forums.homeseer.com/showthread.php?t=169785
        Yes I fully agree with your sentiment and reasons for not making your scripts into plugins nor the need to do so. I also agree with the sentiment that if you are using HS then you are probably a tinker and should be capable of copying a few files and running them. I have however seen cases where that just isn't reality. I think HS is built around a Integrator and DIY Tinkerer model and for those that fit into the criteria it's a great system. However it's also sold at a consumer level as an appliance (HomeTroller's) and people who buy those generally aren't looking to tinker but more so have a system that works and have options/plugins to then tinker with but not logging into the system. But I'm in the hacker criteria...

        I read through both of those threads. Interesting ideas. Not sure I agree fully but interesting. What is also interesting is that mrhappy was the only response to one of the threads and there were no responses to the other.

        Comment


        • #19
          In the (very) early days of the web (1994-1995) I wrote a popular chat client. I considered myself a bit of a pioneer as I:
          1) Made a registration program that I made as a "paid" download on Microsoft's (original) msn - thereby providing a way of purchasing a software license by simply clicking something that charged against your existing account without needing to do an actual payment, much like app stores do today.
          2) I made the price cheap, a measly $5, figuring consumers wouldn't think twice about such a small amount - again how app stores generally approach cost today.

          Holy moly did my product sell, in many ways too successful and (at my young age at the time) I didn't manage it well and had to pull the plug after a couple years as I just couldn't cope.

          But my original thinking I believeis still valid today. I look at the HomeSeer plugin listing and am horrified at the cost of $39.95 if I wanted to integrate my Logitech Harmony for instance. I don't expect free, but $5 seems reasonable to me - $9.95 I'd be having a bit of a huff and a puff, but if I REALLY REALLY wanted it I'd probably cave. $39.95 - sorry but it has never even entered my mind as even the slightest possibility to purchase.

          For one we're talking about just a specific requirement, for two products (the Harmony and HomeSeer) both of which I have already paid money for.

          For another, the value becomes questionable. As a developer I completely appreciate the time and value trying to be recouped, but as a consumer you're talking about ~$99 for the entire HomeSeer platform but somehow a measly plugin (sorry just trying to put into context) for that platform is worth nearly 50% of the entire platform itself? We're not talking about a complete video production software suite, or photo/vector editing suite, or a complete office suite, we're talking about just a plugin for that platform.

          Hope this doesn't come across harsh, I don't in any way what-so-ever mean it the way I'm writing, I intend nothing more than to just paint a picture of how the cost value is seem from a consumer perspective.

          In my personal case x2 - I have two homes both with Harmonys, so with my example above I would buy two of the plugin... but have instead bought none.

          I see subscriptions even worse. Everyone loves to push the whole "it's only one coffee a month" point - completely forgetting that every single product and service in our lives wants to be subscription based, so you go multiplying everything from your doorbell to Photoshop to all your apps to even now heading to a path where every movie and tv studio wants you to sign up to their own streaming service and suddenly you come to the realisation that it's not just a coffee... it's all adds up to more than you even earn. Not to mention the cost doesn't even add up - look at Imperihome, just a few months of it's new subscription exceeds what the TOTAL purchase cost used to be.... if that doesn't single handily demonstrate how absurd pricing is getting I don't know what else can! And again another lost sale - I only found out about those costs in February because I was about to buy it, found out its new ridiculous subscription cost, and walked away.... so yet another product I have not bought that I otherwise would have.

          Anyways just my two cents...

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Tillsy View Post
            In the (very) early days of the web (1994-1995) I wrote a popular chat client. I considered myself a bit of a pioneer as I:
            1) Made a registration program that I made as a "paid" download on Microsoft's (original) msn - thereby providing a way of purchasing a software license by simply clicking something that charged against your existing account without needing to do an actual payment, much like app stores do today.
            2) I made the price cheap, a measly $5, figuring consumers wouldn't think twice about such a small amount - again how app stores generally approach cost today.

            Holy moly did my product sell, in many ways too successful and (at my young age at the time) I didn't manage it well and had to pull the plug after a couple years as I just couldn't cope.

            But my original thinking I believeis still valid today. I look at the HomeSeer plugin listing and am horrified at the cost of $39.95 if I wanted to integrate my Logitech Harmony for instance. I don't expect free, but $5 seems reasonable to me - $9.95 I'd be having a bit of a huff and a puff, but if I REALLY REALLY wanted it I'd probably cave. $39.95 - sorry but it has never even entered my mind as even the slightest possibility to purchase.

            For one we're talking about just a specific requirement, for two products (the Harmony and HomeSeer) both of which I have already paid money for.

            For another, the value becomes questionable. As a developer I completely appreciate the time and value trying to be recouped, but as a consumer you're talking about ~$99 for the entire HomeSeer platform but somehow a measly plugin (sorry just trying to put into context) for that platform is worth nearly 50% of the entire platform itself? We're not talking about a complete video production software suite, or photo/vector editing suite, or a complete office suite, we're talking about just a plugin for that platform.

            Hope this doesn't come across harsh, I don't in any way what-so-ever mean it the way I'm writing, I intend nothing more than to just paint a picture of how the cost value is seem from a consumer perspective.

            In my personal case x2 - I have two homes both with Harmonys, so with my example above I would buy two of the plugin... but have instead bought none.

            I see subscriptions even worse. Everyone loves to push the whole "it's only one coffee a month" point - completely forgetting that every single product and service in our lives wants to be subscription based, so you go multiplying everything from your doorbell to Photoshop to all your apps to even now heading to a path where every movie and tv studio wants you to sign up to their own streaming service and suddenly you come to the realisation that it's not just a coffee... it's all adds up to more than you even earn. Not to mention the cost doesn't even add up - look at Imperihome, just a few months of it's new subscription exceeds what the TOTAL purchase cost used to be.... if that doesn't single handily demonstrate how absurd pricing is getting I don't know what else can! And again another lost sale - I only found out about those costs in February because I was about to buy it, found out its new ridiculous subscription cost, and walked away.... so yet another product I have not bought that I otherwise would have.

            Anyways just my two cents...
            I fully agree with everything you wrote in regards to the plugin pricing and the subscription models being crazy. I think the plugin pricing is a reason why some people stopped writing plugins and that's due to the cut of 30% that HST takes.

            Of course if I compare plugin cost from HS3 to Control4. The costs are no where near each other as C4 plugins are really expensive.

            Of course I could be funny and put my plugins in for .99 cents and let HST take 30% of that and then take another hit from paypal for processing the funds and I'd then make a whole 2 cents

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by S-F View Post
              If you're up for it you could make a media plugin. HST decided to abandon their media player plugin from HS2 and the opened the source. There is still no decent music player for HS3. I have no idea why as all the big names in home automation focus primarily on media. If you wrote the plugin from scratch and included things like Pandora and Spotify support I imagine you'd have a decent user base. I wish I had more time so I could learn to write plugins myself.
              +1 for undertaking a media player plugin effort!!! This is greatly needed. Specifically, it would be great to see a media plugin that directly handles JRiver.

              Jeubanks, I am fairly new to all of this, but with respect to your core question isn't this where MQTT and things like Node Red come into the picture and provide a partial solution? In short, if you have a specific plugin you need that isn't available in HS3, using HS3 with MQTT functionality you could connect to other open source HA programs and address the needs for certain plugins via a core set of HA programs that contain the additional functionality you need. This is obviously not ideal, but it seems to me that that is where some of this is headed and could be a contributing factor concerning why plugin growth has perhaps slowed (at least with regard to devices) ...

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Tillsy View Post
                In the (very) early days of the web (1994-1995) I wrote a popular chat client. I considered myself a bit of a pioneer as I:
                1) Made a registration program that I made as a "paid" download on Microsoft's (original) msn - thereby providing a way of purchasing a software license by simply clicking something that charged against your existing account without needing to do an actual payment, much like app stores do today.
                2) I made the price cheap, a measly $5, figuring consumers wouldn't think twice about such a small amount - again how app stores generally approach cost today.

                Holy moly did my product sell, in many ways too successful and (at my young age at the time) I didn't manage it well and had to pull the plug after a couple years as I just couldn't cope.

                But my original thinking I believeis still valid today. I look at the HomeSeer plugin listing and am horrified at the cost of $39.95 if I wanted to integrate my Logitech Harmony for instance. I don't expect free, but $5 seems reasonable to me - $9.95 I'd be having a bit of a huff and a puff, but if I REALLY REALLY wanted it I'd probably cave. $39.95 - sorry but it has never even entered my mind as even the slightest possibility to purchase.

                For one we're talking about just a specific requirement, for two products (the Harmony and HomeSeer) both of which I have already paid money for.

                For another, the value becomes questionable. As a developer I completely appreciate the time and value trying to be recouped, but as a consumer you're talking about ~$99 for the entire HomeSeer platform but somehow a measly plugin (sorry just trying to put into context) for that platform is worth nearly 50% of the entire platform itself? We're not talking about a complete video production software suite, or photo/vector editing suite, or a complete office suite, we're talking about just a plugin for that platform.

                Hope this doesn't come across harsh, I don't in any way what-so-ever mean it the way I'm writing, I intend nothing more than to just paint a picture of how the cost value is seem from a consumer perspective.

                In my personal case x2 - I have two homes both with Harmonys, so with my example above I would buy two of the plugin... but have instead bought none.

                I see subscriptions even worse. Everyone loves to push the whole "it's only one coffee a month" point - completely forgetting that every single product and service in our lives wants to be subscription based, so you go multiplying everything from your doorbell to Photoshop to all your apps to even now heading to a path where every movie and tv studio wants you to sign up to their own streaming service and suddenly you come to the realisation that it's not just a coffee... it's all adds up to more than you even earn. Not to mention the cost doesn't even add up - look at Imperihome, just a few months of it's new subscription exceeds what the TOTAL purchase cost used to be.... if that doesn't single handily demonstrate how absurd pricing is getting I don't know what else can! And again another lost sale - I only found out about those costs in February because I was about to buy it, found out its new ridiculous subscription cost, and walked away.... so yet another product I have not bought that I otherwise would have.

                Anyways just my two cents...
                If I remember correctly, Rich (HST Owner) stated that before they increased their prices significantly, their product (HS2) was not taken seriously as the big boys at the time such as AMX, Crestron etc cost significantly more. This was reinforced by visitor comments received at shows such as CES. Price increases were also introduced to encourage distributors and installers to offer HS as an alternative solution to householders rather than being labelled as hobby software.

                Also at the time, you did not buy cheap apps for your phone so there was no comparison when buying a plugin. Unlike phone apps, there is just not the volume of sales with such a niche product. How many people own a harmony hub and Homeseer? It may be only 200 people and some may not even require integration. Phone app sales are in the millions so low cost is profitable.

                There is no right or wrong here and different companies have their own pricing strategies that work best for them. What I do notice is the majority of complaints about plugin prices come from people defecting from other HA systems such as Vera (Yes I enjoy reading the Vera forums about Homeseer prices!). For long-standing HS users, these prices are normal and if you really want a plugin, you'll pay.

                As a developer yourself, why not write your own Harmony plugin? If you think your time is worth less than the 39.95USD asking price, have a stab yourself!
                Jon

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by jeubanks View Post
                  I noticed that. In years past I saw HS as being media centric and now they aren't and all of the other big names are media centric.

                  I think part of it is the direction media has taken and the large numbers of devices now and the different integration points of each of them. It's a product of it's own not just a plugin to be a media center these days.

                  It's hard to even think of where to begin... don't start with NEEO Eman!

                  Maybe that's why there's a slow down on plugins and integrations. There's just too much to support and too many devices to try and cover them all. So plugins are now essentially single device or vendor integration points.

                  With that thought perhaps a hybrid not a full plugin but more than a script. It would still need a interface but not all the 1000 bells and whistles that a full blown plugin has to offer. A simplified hybrid plugin? I think a simplified hybrid would actually attract more developers as well. The current API samples are HUGE and a good 90% of it is not needed for most common plugins.


                  You did not think I would be reading this thread!
                  BUT PLEASE?

                  I loved it. It's full of smart people!


                  Eman.
                  The Closer.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Have had a couple messages (PM and reply here) about my comments regarding the Harmony plugins.

                    So just wanted to apologise and repeat my declaration that I did not intend my post to be harsh or represent anything other than a point of view regarding pricing - nothing more. The mention of the Harmony plugin was purely an example - paying such a fee, or as suggested developing my own, holds no value to me it was just an example of why I would or would not chose to pay.

                    Whereas controlling my window blinds I did hold significant value for, albeit still not for the cost of what was out there so in that case I did create my own circuit and software for that (which like all of us, gave me the benefit of creating specific functionality that I personally wanted).

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I think part of the change is the advance in technology.

                      In 2002, I was working on a way to be able to control a Cable/Satellite box and a VCR to record shows. Many scripts and eventually a plugin was used to download tv listings, allow setting up a virtual control device that would send the IR commands to change the channel to what was going to be recorded. Send the IR commands to Start recording and at the correct time send the Stop command.

                      Fast forward a few years and I have a DVR with 2000 hours or record space, click through a built in tv guide and push select to setup a recording.

                      I'm not trying to sound like a "Back in my days" post.
                      Just that a lot of things that we were trying to do, has become obsolete with the advance of technology.
                      --
                      Jeff Farmer
                      HS 3, HSPhone
                      My HS3 Plugins: CFHSExtras, Random, Restart, Tracker, WeatherXML, PanaBluRay
                      Other Plugins In Use: APCUPSD, BLOnkyo, Device History, EasyTrigger, HSTouch Server, PHLocation2, Pushover, RFXCom, UltraGCIR3, UltraMon3, UltraPioneerAVR3, X10, Z-Wave

                      Hardware: GoControl Irrigation Controler, Schlage Lever Lock, Schlage Deadbolt, Way2Call Hi-Phone, RFXCom RFXrec433 Receiver, WGL 800, TI-103, Z-Net, Pioneer 1120, Pioneer 1021, Pioneer LX302, Panasonic BDT-110, Panasonic BDT-210 x2

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Eman View Post
                        You did not think I would be reading this thread!
                        BUT PLEASE?

                        I loved it. It's full of smart people!


                        Eman.
                        I counted on you reading this thread!

                        Comment

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