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    #31
    Well I suspect we will have early access to the new controller SDK so work will probably start in the fall and could be released early 21 when the SDK is released. We normally don't have to waif for a full release to start working on it. But to be sure, this new plugin is not going to have good support for older devices as Z-Wave has deprecated a few command classes and command class versions. So I suspect some users will end up with devices that won't work and they will need to stick with the HS3 plugin if they want to continue using them. This is only a guess though, too early to tell.

    And yes, the updates like SmartStart and S2 are really not needed but you really have to have them for marketing reasons. SmartStart is targeted for dealers, how hard is it to press a button to add a device? Is it easier to scan a code with your phone, then have the device auto add, then not know which device was added in the UI? Our users will not find that easier. S2 is just a secure communication protocol. How many people are going to sniff your network to decode your packets and unlock your door? No one. My home was broken into and all they did was kick the door. Totally ignored the smart lock! So again, marketing only. But the new SDK includes all of this so we don't have to code it, so we get it with little work. With the S2 Beta plugin we have, we had to manually code it all. We can keep that updated for users who want to use it. As long as we keep it as beta it does not need to be certified.

    Since we will have a 700 series stick, we will have the latest technology available for those who want it.

    Note that while S2 is faster than the old S0, its still not as fast as no security, so I just add devices with security disabled. Also, if you want to back up your interface and restore it, you have add the S2 devices back again so they get new keys, A pain.

    Originally posted by Tillsy View Post

    So realistically allowing for it coming out late then for you to do your full re-write we're talking mid-late 2022 here. Just something to think about from a marketing perspective.

    Reason I mention that... when I first explored Z-Wave I wanted the Fibaro Home Controller. It looked impressive. But a few years after everyone had Z-Wave Plus controllers, Fibaro's Home Controller was still plain Z-Wave (with hacks to give it some Z-Wave Plus functionality). If you search the Internet you will find it saturated with customers who chose against HC2 because it was outdated (myself included, I went Vera instead at the time).

    Just something to think about - as you're right, the other vendors being exclusively Linux based will move to 700 series a good year or two before HST which is going to put you in that same position.

    Does it really matter from a technical perspective? Only by a little bit.... as was the technical disadvantage that HC2 had. Does it really matter from a marketing perspective? Sadly yes - again it is worth doing a search on the topic and seeing the mindboggling number of customers HC2 lost until HC3 only just finally came out this year. You can't sell a Windows 7 computer today for example and not expect people to look straight past you - that's what HC2 was equivalent of for past few years

    Don't have an answer for you though, just the dilemma
    website | buy now | support | youtube

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      #32
      You cannot add 700 series devices to it? That does not make sense as the 700 series is backwards compatible. For example, you can add 700 series devices to HS. You get all the benefits of the 700 series like longer battery life and better range between devices. You will not get better range with the controller if its's not a 700 series controller.

      But beware, you won't see better range until ALL your devices are 700 series. Sure it might be better with any device in direct range of the controller but as soon as it routes through a 500/300 series device the range advantage is lost.

      The only real advantage I see to the 700 series is the longer battery life for battery devices. Also, for developing new devices the SDK is far better than the older 8051 based SDK. So new devices are easier to develop.

      Originally posted by John245 View Post

      The HC3 also has no support for the series 700 Z-Wave devices and people are complaining about that and are in fact not purchasing or updating.

      ---

      John
      website | buy now | support | youtube

      Comment


        #33
        I agree on the security part. If you are concerned about security (and you should), you shouldn't be using wireless technology for security purposes like alarm systems and locks.

        I also had serious delays on my network when all devices where joined securely.

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by rjh View Post
          You cannot add 700 series devices to it? That does not make sense as the 700 series is backwards compatible. For example, you can add 700 series devices to HS. You get all the benefits of the 700 series like longer battery life and better range between devices. You will not get better range with the controller if its's not a 700 series controller.

          But beware, you won't see better range until ALL your devices are 700 series. Sure it might be better with any device in direct range of the controller but as soon as it routes through a 500/300 series device the range advantage is lost.

          The only real advantage I see to the 700 series is the longer battery life for battery devices. Also, for developing new devices the SDK is far better than the older 8051 based SDK. So new devices are easier to develop.


          Yes you can add 700 series devices. But you will not profit from all benefits.

          And with a larger range you can also split your network in a 700 series and a500 series.

          ---
          John

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by John245 View Post

            Yes you can add 700 series devices. But you will not profit from all benefits.

            And with a larger range you can also split your network in a 700 series and a500 series.

            ---
            John
            Do you mean that HS4 can support both networks simultaneously?

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by Black Cat View Post

              Do you mean that HS4 can support both networks simultaneously?
              They are all using the same frequency, but you can have multiple Z-Wave networks under HS, I have 5. It would be easy enough to add a 700 series controller and only include 700 series devices under that HomeID.

              Comment


                #37
                I did not expect to unleash all the big heads in this question ;-).
                but at the same time I am really happy to have shown this inconsistency in the deadlines and in the promise that had been made ;-)
                if i remember correctly we should have this version early rc1

                I'm really disappointed with the z-wave protocol for the moment because it is getting slower and slower
                you take device compatible with tasmota in wifi and the reaction is almost immediate
                I would really hope to see this change in the z-wave hs4 but obviously it will only be the menu and the new devices that will be supported; (

                last small request
                where are we with the opening of the z-wave protocol? and what will it change here in homeseer?

                for those who have a translator go to their site! ;-)
                https://www.abavala.com/le-protocole...andard-ouvert/


                thank you all for the explanation and its damage that at the beginning it was said that this was just the menu that changes ;-( I find it a shame that we still have to show what has already been said for more info ;-(

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by rprade View Post
                  They are all using the same frequency, but you can have multiple Z-Wave networks under HS, I have 5. It would be easy enough to add a 700 series controller and only include 700 series devices under that HomeID.
                  Thanks for pointing me in this direction, had no idea that this could be done. Successfully added a new 6.06UZB, to a RasPi running HS4, now the 64$K question is how many can be added and what are the benefits?

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by Black Cat View Post

                    Thanks for pointing me in this direction, had no idea that this could be done. Successfully added a new 6.06UZB, to a RasPi running HS4, now the 64$K question is how many can be added and what are the benefits?
                    Don't worry about the amount of interfaces that can be added. I don't think that you will reach the limit.

                    The benefits are speed. For e.g I gave a Z-NET wit only Z-Wave devices and another Z-NET with only Z-Wave+ devices. By this segregation the network speed is maximized.


                    ---
                    John

                    Comment


                      #40
                      rjh, thank you for this coherent explanation, but I must ask the "elephant-in-the-room" question. What does z-wave certification provide for users or sellers of the technology? I think we have effectively exploded the myth that it ensures interoperability, especially for older devices. Moving forward, it sounds like there will be issues with current technology as they become crippled through the process of deprecation.

                      What does the "certification process" mean when two certified devices don't work together as in the example of the Trane thermostat. I, too, fell victim to this, when I had a CT-100 go bad and replaced it with the only Trane thermostat that is in the HS "works with" list. I lost the reporting of humidity.

                      I'm just beginning to believe that certification is the payment of a tribute by developers that in turn locks the users into buying a very expensive logo with every ensuing purchase.

                      I'm very excited to begin looking more into Zigbee and Wi-Fi and I hope HS feels the same.

                      PS
                      How many users know they themselves must punch down to the furthest depths of command_classes for all devices of interest to have a clue what may or may not be available and/or "work" together?
                      HomeSeer Version: HS3 Pro Edition 3.0.0.500
                      Operating System: Microsoft Windows 10 Pro - Work Station

                      Enabled Plug-Ins:
                      2.1.0.119: AmbientWeather | 3.0.21.0: BLLock | 2.0.24.0: BLUPS | 1.3.6.0: Device History | 3.0.0.56: EasyTrigger | 3.1.0.7: MeiHarmonyHub | 3.0.6681.34300: UltraCID3 | 3.0.6644.26753: UltraLog3 | 3.0.6554.33094: UltraMon3 | 3.0.0.91: weatherXML | 3.0.1.245: Z-Wave | 3.0.51: HS Touch Designer | 3.0.0.40 Z-Seer+

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Well, if you don't get certified your products could be banned (at least the Alliance will not note them as being supported). It has been mentioned that the Alliance may try to stop you from selling your products. Although I am not aware of that happening.

                        We depend on developer support from SIlicon Labs in order to develop products. If we don't certify we run the risk of losing access to this information. That would be very bad.

                        Your products do get listed on the Alliance web site with links to Amazon. Not sure how many users shop from there though.

                        Does the user care if a device is certified? Probably not. I bet you already own some products that are not UL or FCC tested. Some people do care though, we get the question sometimes.

                        I know that the Z-Wave protocol is in the public domain now, but most of the information you need in order to build devices is not. We have many Z-Wave devices so we need the developer support.

                        Their goal is a good one though. They want to ensure that all Z-Wave products interoperate properly. All it would take is one poorly developed piece of hardware to take down your network.

                        Originally posted by ewkearns View Post
                        rjh, thank you for this coherent explanation, but I must ask the "elephant-in-the-room" question. What does z-wave certification provide for users or sellers of the technology? I think we have effectively exploded the myth that it ensures interoperability, especially for older devices. Moving forward, it sounds like there will be issues with current technology as they become crippled through the process of deprecation.

                        What does the "certification process" mean when two certified devices don't work together as in the example of the Trane thermostat. I, too, fell victim to this, when I had a CT-100 go bad and replaced it with the only Trane thermostat that is in the HS "works with" list. I lost the reporting of humidity.

                        I'm just beginning to believe that certification is the payment of a tribute by developers that in turn locks the users into buying a very expensive logo with every ensuing purchase.

                        I'm very excited to begin looking more into Zigbee and Wi-Fi and I hope HS feels the same.

                        PS
                        How many users know they themselves must punch down to the furthest depths of command_classes for all devices of interest to have a clue what may or may not be available and/or "work" together?
                        website | buy now | support | youtube

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by rjh View Post

                          Their goal is a good one though. They want to ensure that all Z-Wave products interoperate properly. All it would take is one poorly developed piece of hardware to take down your network.

                          Thank you for your thorough and thoughtful response. From my [admittedly, narrow] perspective as an end-user, their certification is a moot point in that it tells me nothing about what any particular device will or won't do with any given controller. From my experience, I can buy a device [for the sake of logical argument, a thermostat] that supports any permutation or combination of a given collection of command_classes supported by z-wave [I suppose there is a minimum, I don't know] and that thermostat can be certified with either a long list or a short list, but it can be certified. So, in my shoes, while their goal seems to be laudable, the process they use is broken in that it leads the average user in the direction that assumes all like devices are like, but they aren't. Maybe, I was a little dense in assuming all similar devices were equal, but boy, have I learned that they are not!
                          HomeSeer Version: HS3 Pro Edition 3.0.0.500
                          Operating System: Microsoft Windows 10 Pro - Work Station

                          Enabled Plug-Ins:
                          2.1.0.119: AmbientWeather | 3.0.21.0: BLLock | 2.0.24.0: BLUPS | 1.3.6.0: Device History | 3.0.0.56: EasyTrigger | 3.1.0.7: MeiHarmonyHub | 3.0.6681.34300: UltraCID3 | 3.0.6644.26753: UltraLog3 | 3.0.6554.33094: UltraMon3 | 3.0.0.91: weatherXML | 3.0.1.245: Z-Wave | 3.0.51: HS Touch Designer | 3.0.0.40 Z-Seer+

                          Comment


                            #43
                            You are 100% correct here and it's my beef with certification. The cert only tests the command classes that you say you support. They don't put a requirement on which command classes you need to support (well, there is a minimum list for some device types). But for controllers, if you only supported on/off/dim you could get certified. That would be a useless controller. So as a consumer you have no idea if a controller will support your devices. SmartThings does't support hardly any command classes by default.

                            They should provide code that supports ALL the command classes rather than force controller developers to hand code each class (which is what we do now). I believe HS supports the most command classes of any controller, but how would the user know that? The cert docs on the Alliance site does require us to list supported command classes, but the average user does not know what a command class is, so not very useful. I am hoping the new controller SDK addresses some of this.

                            Originally posted by ewkearns View Post


                            Thank you for your thorough and thoughtful response. From my [admittedly, narrow] perspective as an end-user, their certification is a moot point in that it tells me nothing about what any particular device will or won't do with any given controller. From my experience, I can buy a device [for the sake of logical argument, a thermostat] that supports any permutation or combination of a given collection of command_classes supported by z-wave [I suppose there is a minimum, I don't know] and that thermostat can be certified with either a long list or a short list, but it can be certified. So, in my shoes, while their goal seems to be laudable, the process they use is broken in that it leads the average user in the direction that assumes all like devices are like, but they aren't. Maybe, I was a little dense in assuming all similar devices were equal, but boy, have I learned that they are not!
                            website | buy now | support | youtube

                            Comment


                              #44
                              I am not having any problems using the latest HS3 Z-Wave plugin under HS4 for Windows. I was using it on the HS4 beta from 4.0.1.30 up to HS4 4.1.1.0 today. Locks, thermostats, energy monitor, tri-sensors, multi-tap scenes all good. I am not seeing any reason why the HS3 Z-Wave plugin should stand in the way of moving to HS4.

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