Had Enough ? Going back to HS3

[Ltek]

That statement really goes against your review of HS3 here: https://sites.google.com/ltek.net/hs...ome?authuser=2

Some of the missing functionality you quoted in your review is now available in HS4 so surely things are moving forward?.

I think you would find that HS4 would be much further down the line if there had not been the multiple personal / incidents with HST over the past year which has set them back severely. Yes HST is not good at understanding their market (or competition) but I believe Rich is now really trying to appease its remaining Power Users which they have neglected in the past.

My statements are consistent. clearly and specifically stated this was about UI features and functions (not gfx)... HS4 still has NONE of the missing features and functions: drag-n-drop, tree-view selection menus, savable filters/favorites, etc

As several have pointed out, the HS4 UI is a step back in many ways. Even going back to HS 1.7 (which I used) where the UI showed more info relevant device and event than HS3 or HS4 (as someone else in the thread pointed out) -- which you had to write scripts to give us back some of that but still not as good as having it on the core admin screens

btw, I bet Rich has never read that post from 3 years ago... and looking back, I only see 2 or 3 things have have gotten better, none are "resolved" and most have not even a hope of being addressed.

Lets not deviate from the main issue...
20 years and Homeseer is half the app it should be. The only thing making Homeseer anywhere near power user friendly is the 3P plugins, period - full stop. I have the UTMOST respect for you, Spud, Michael M, and others for whom without you, Homeseer would be unusable. HST have lost many good plugin writers and losing more as they see HST is not going to get better, and is just riding the backs of the plugin writers to make HS improvements.

Homeseer is so far behind I doubt there is any way to stop the boat from sinking unless someone comes along and buys it and injects a ton of cash to hire some top-notch coders. HST is the Novell NetWare of Home Automation... was the best (by far) but stopped giving the core user base what they were asking for and stopped improving the software... so litte-ol Microsoft stomped them like a bug in just a few years.

I regret paying for the HS4 update; not because of the money... because it sent the wrong message.
Not paying would have sent the correct message: "Rich, you have not improved HS in at least 4 years. You ignore power users requests and not even engaged with the community. Your actions (lack of) show you don't care and don't value us. Until your actions show otherwise, we are not paying for the same app with a few new gfx, we want real improvements.

[Kevb]

rjh With all respect - the past 4 years don't show anything close to "I have heard you". Thus many top power users and plugin writers left Homeseer in the last 4 years -- and continue to do so.


I moved from Vera nearly 5 years ago which (with just the base and a single $15 paid plugin) had MUCH MORE event 'programmability' then HS does right now, even with the multiple paid and free 3P plugins from HS3. And now many are asking for more $ to convert to HS4 plugins. Yeah, Vera was unstable so I moved 'back' to HS but I wished I'd had moved to something else... the additional work then would have been worth it.

.

I too left Vera, and at the time, they didn't even have an "AND" in their logic- everything was through a plug in, the most valuable authors had left years ago (Garrettwp, rshaeffer, futzle) To me, HS is light years ahead of Vera, which I consider a joke at this point. rjh has said, new users leave because there's not a mobile app. They need new users to sign up. HS does everything i need, as long as I speak it's language. I'm all in.

[Tinkerdinker]

It’s funny, having recently moved from Vera, all I can see is how much faster/better homeseer seems to be! I’ve had a few bugs that needed to be worked out, but overall it’s doing what I want.

I’m not sure if this has been mentioned. The one issue I’ve had is that while programming an event, if you have a large number of devices the popup menu starts at ‘m’ instead of the first device. Sometimes there’s a search box, but other times that search box seems to be missing and there’s no way to get to the devices that start with a-l.

[Rupp]

It’s funny, having recently moved from Vera, all I can see is how much faster/better homeseer seems to be! I’ve had a few bugs that needed to be worked out, but overall it’s doing what I want.

I’m not sure if this has been mentioned. The one issue I’ve had is that while programming an event, if you have a large number of devices the popup menu starts at ‘m’ instead of the first device. Sometimes there’s a search box, but other times that search box seems to be missing and there’s no way to get to the devices that start with a-l.

I'd recommend putting in a help desk ticket on this issue so the developers know about this issue.

https://dev.homeseer.com/servicedesk/customer/portal/2

[Eman]

Tinkerdinker ,

With issues, it also helps to state what version of HomeSeer you're using. Yes, sometimes you need to make a backup then try the latest because what some people report might already been fixed and/or you too report can on the progress of the updates...


Eman.

[akurz]

Yes HST is not good at understanding their market (or competition) but I believe Rich is now really trying to appease its remaining Power Users which they have neglected in the past.

THIS is what I still hope for. I've been with Homeseer for a very long time (since the Keware days) and wrote so many scripts and stuff that moving to a different platform would be a complete nightmare - and this is why I am still here. I've witnessed how HST drifted away from providing the power user friendly software that did what others couldn't, towards becoming a touch & click solution that nobody asked for, for a user base that's already hooked with Alexa & Home Kit and whichever colorful solutions are around to control a handful of lights and appliances. HST isn't Apple - neither in terms of capabilities, nor market reach. There's no point in trying to get there.

Alex

[TC1]

THIS is what I still hope for. I've been with Homeseer for a very long time (since the Keware days) and wrote so many scripts and stuff that moving to a different platform would be a complete nightmare - and this is why I am still here. I've witnessed how HST drifted away from providing the power user friendly software that did what others couldn't, towards becoming a touch & click solution that nobody asked for, for a user base that's already hooked with Alexa & Home Kit and whichever colorful solutions are around to control a handful of lights and appliances. HST isn't Apple - neither in terms of capabilities, nor market reach. There's no point in trying to get there.

Alex

This is one of the best summations I've read in a while. The touch and click crowd are going to buy and install a SmartThings like hub or Google Nest hub or Echo, etc., which all have a lower price point than HomeSeer. A home automation systems integrator wouldn't be caught dead installing one of those consumer hubs into a client's home, but they could get away with installing Homeseer. Homeseer is that happy medium between the low-end consumer stuff and the price prohibitive stuff like Control4.

And despite what anyone says, a professionally and well though out Homeseer installation is very reliable, it just doesn't have the the polished interface of a Control4 system.

[mulu]

That's pretty much my sentiment. But if HS wants to survive, and I want them to, then you also have to appeal to the broader home automation market. So I see why they did what they did. The problem is that "power users" were kind of left behind with this "do everything on your phone" kind of approach. They are putting in some effort to correct it but it is a very slow process. And yes, I do see them somewhere between the "all on my phone" people and the Control4 people plus no monthly fees (I rather pay more upfront) and no dependency on the internet. The last two were some pretty big requirement for me (same reason I initially went with Vera).

[George]

Well, this is the way I see it. HS4 is TILE based, trying to go the way of the failed Tile's in Windows 8 & 10. Evidenced by the fact that in the latest Windows 10 and Windows 11, Tiles are optional and GONE from the home screen. People just didn't want a failed M$ phone interface and those clunky tiles on their PC screens. They did not want to be treated as children with pictures, tiles and adverts. So they rebelled against the tile interface and now it's gone.

I also can't fault Rich at the beginning, considering he saw that Windoze was going all Tile interface and truly believed that Tiles were the GUI of the future. Well the future has spoken and again, no tiles and the MAC interface has won! So now Windows 10 and Windows 11 don't have tiles and you have to go through hoop to turn them back on. Users just wanted a simple start menu, a task bar, Microsoft STOLE the App Dock from Apple again on Windows 11, shall I go on?

But now that Tiles have been proven to be not the way to go and M$ has gone as far as to rewrite the entire GUI to drop them, maybe it's time to reconsider just what do Tiles and fancy colors actually bring to Home Automation?

[Rupp]

Well, this is the way I see it. HS4 is TILE based, trying to go the way of the failed Tile's in Windows 8 & 10. Evidenced by the fact that in the latest Windows 10 and Windows 11, Tiles are optional and GONE from the home screen. People just didn't want a failed M$ phone interface and those clunky tiles on their PC screens. They did not want to be treated as children with pictures, tiles and adverts. So they rebelled against the tile interface and now it's gone.

I also can't fault Rich at the beginning, considering he saw that Windoze was going all Tile interface and truly believed that Tiles were the GUI of the future. Well the future has spoken and again, no tiles and the MAC interface has won! So now Windows 10 and Windows 11 don't have tiles and you have to go through hoop to turn them back on. Users just wanted a simple start menu, a task bar, Microsoft STOLE the App Dock from Apple again on Windows 11, shall I go on?

But now that Tiles have been proven to be not the way to go and M$ has gone as far as to rewrite the entire GUI to drop them, maybe it's time to reconsider just what do Tiles and fancy colors actually bring to Home Automation?

The tile view is just one view. You still have the List view as a choice.

[George]

Yeah, and I've seen the list view, still looks like a tinker toy. When you expand it to do any work it's unworkable and unviewable.

And please don't tell me the old List View from HS3 (DeviceView) is still there. I might as well stay on HS3 then!

[Ltek]

... if HS wants to survive, and I want them to, then you also have to appeal to the broader home automation market.

So I see why they did what they did. The problem is that "power users" were kind of left behind with this "do everything on your phone" kind of approach. They are putting in some effort to correct it but it is a very slow process. And yes, I do see them somewhere between the "all on my phone" people and the Control4 people plus no monthly fees (I rather pay more upfront) and no dependency on the internet. The last two were some pretty big requirement for me (same reason I initially went with Vera).

I disagree with that first statement... HST should 100% not try to appeal to the "broader home automation market". They will lose, badly and painfully and HST will go under if they spend money and effort trying. The ONLY chance they have to survive is to do more of what the HS app can be best at right now -- appealing to the prosumer market. They are losing there because they are trying to go after the market that Amazon & Google (and Smarthings to some extent) already owns.

It might be too late. HST needs to focus strictly on feature advancement for prosumer(Home Assistant, SmartThings) and low-to-mid market system integrators (Savant, Control 4, etc). HST has shown they don't get it, at all... and thus put out half-baked "stuff" they think soccer moms and dads will use. Really bad business sense.

You guys can talk about tiles, HTML5, or whatever - that is all meaningless when talking about competing and growing a business.

[mulu]

I am not really disagreeing with George but I certainly appreciate that HS is at least adding list view options. Not as efficient as in HS3 but a whole lot better than the dang tiles. What would have been cool is having list views that are much more configurable, i.e. what columns are being shown, and being able to edit stuff right from the list view rather than having to click on a device first before being able to do any editing. You can't even change the device/feature name when you are in the device list.

[jgreenberg01]

And despite what anyone says, a professionally and well though out Homeseer installation is very reliable, it just doesn't have the the polished interface of a Control4 system.

And I would add to that, if you are good with HSTouch, you can make it like exactly like Control4 if that's how you want to roll.

In fact, you can make it look however you want. You just have to put in some time, but after all, HS is for DIYers and we're doing this because we want what we want.

[mulu]

And I would add to that, if you are good with HSTouch, you can make it like exactly like Control4 if that's how you want to roll.

In fact, you can make it look however you want. You just have to put in some time, but after all, HS is for DIYers and we're doing this because we want what we want.

Indeed, you can do almost everything in HSTouch but many things need a lot of work arounds. It's not for the faint-hearted. That's actually why I got REALLY excited that HS is supposedly working on a complete new HSTouch. I don't care if the web interface is ugly as long as it's efficient. But HSTouch is the thing that is being exposed to the users through tablets, phones, etc and yes, I don't want an app that just lists all my devices. I want custom screens and while the current HSTouch obviously is allowing this it really lacks in communication to HS. It is mostly a one-way street, HS to HSTouch and not so much HSTouch to HS.