Matter: Is there a HomeSeer technology roadmap or even a plan?

[TC1]

While this might be true I have to ask is the root of the problem the fact that folks don't buy enough devices they don't need just to bolster the mesh backbone? Or is the problem that a routed mesh is an inappropriate model for a home automation protocol while a broadcast with collision avoidance type sytem would not impose the requirement to buy so many devices just to make it work reliably? I really have concerns about some of the design decisions that went into Z-Wave.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? The mesh system allows plug-n-play from the consumer POV, simply buy and install more devices and the network gets better/stronger. Contrast that with residential WiFi where the consumer has to buy expensive access points and add them in arbitrary different places around their house, which is bad IMO. When I used to design commercial WiFi networks we'd do an actual RF survey of the facility to determine precisely where to place APs, the average consumer doesn't have a clue on how to do this.

And in terms of questioning Z-wave design decisions and broadcast collision, it's already designed into the spec:
https://www.rfwireless-world.com/Tut...MAC-layer.html

[upstatemike]

Just saying that forcing people to buy more stuff build out a mesh is not a consumer friendly way to design a protocol. Contrast this to LoRa or Clear Connect that are pretty much just plug and play anywhere in you home without needing to lay down a path of devices to get the signal from point A to point B. I agree that Wi-Fi is not a good alternative but that is for other reasons than the need for Access Points. In fact it is the use of Z-Wave Access Points (Z-Nets) that helps mitigate the shortcomings of the mesh network design strategy.

[TC1]

Just saying that forcing people to buy more stuff build out a mesh is not a consumer friendly way to design a protocol. Contrast this to LoRa or Clear Connect that are pretty much just plug and play anywhere in you home without needing to lay down a path of devices to get the signal from point A to point B. I agree that Wi-Fi is not a good alternative but that is for other reasons than the need for Access Points. In fact it is the use of Z-Wave Access Points (Z-Nets) that helps mitigate the shortcomings of the mesh network design strategy.

You're making an apples to oranges comparison. Look at the size and costs of LoRa devices compared to Z-wave or Zigbee sensors. LoRa devices are larger/uglier and more expensive compared to existing Z-wave and Zigbee devices. And Semtech controls the silicon for LoRa, despite them creating an "alliance". LoRa might be great in a farm or industrial environment where people don't care about size, aesthetics, or costs.

[ewkearns]

The OP asked an important question: "Is there a HomeSeer technology roadmap or even a plan?" Unfortunately, every roadmap or plan I have seen posted was rapidly withdrawn. It seems we are arguing about whether we should swab the deck with a mop, a Swiffer, or a Roomba. The covert and random course of the ship, to me, seems much more worthy of discussion. Just my 2¢.

[upstatemike]

The OP asked an important question: "Is there a HomeSeer technology roadmap or even a plan?" Unfortunately, every roadmap or plan I have seen posted was rapidly withdrawn. It seems we are arguing about whether we should swab the deck with a mop, a Swiffer, or a Roomba. The covert and random course of the ship, to me, seems much more worthy of discussion. Just my 2¢.

I can't blame Homeseer for not creating a roadmap for something as vauge and untested as Matter. Maybe it will become the best thing since sliced bread but when will that be true and at what point does it make sense to divert resources to it and what exactly has been released and set in stone for Homeseer to develop against? I still think it's early enough to in the lifecycle of Matter to ask what does it really do for me to address my issues with existing Home Automation protocols and if the answer is nothing then who cares when or if Homeseer supports it?

[upstatemike]

You're making an apples to oranges comparison. Look at the size and costs of LoRa devices compared to Z-wave or Zigbee sensors. LoRa devices are larger/uglier and more expensive compared to existing Z-wave and Zigbee devices. And Semtech controls the silicon for LoRa, despite them creating an "alliance". LoRa might be great in a farm or industrial environment where people don't care about size, aesthetics, or costs.

LoRa, mainly YoLink products, are still quite new and undergoing rapid refinement. I think they do alright when compared to 1st generation Z-Wave stuff. The question is will they develop advanced features and aesthetics to let them compete against other current HA products? I'm willing to give them another year or two before making a final judgement. In the mean time YoLink water sensors and door contacts coupled to Homeseer via Alexa routines give me fast and reliable notifications in far flung areas that would be completely impractical to add by extending a mesh network.

But speaking of device comparisons, since all the big tech companies seem to favor Zigbee I would like to look more at the switches and keypads available in that protocol. What would be a good equivalent to the Homeseer WD200 dimmer with the RGB LED bar? What is the Zigbee strategy for doing direct switch associations? Which Zigbee keypads compare most directly with keypads from Zooz or Inovelli? I'm guessing those Zigbee products may be a kind of preview of what to expect from Matter switches and keypads.

[ewkearns]

I can'r blame Homeseer for not creating a roadmap for something as vauge and untested as Matter....

My suggestion was to disregard Matter or any of the other technologies like Z-Wave, Wifi, Zigbee, etc. They are all usable under HSx, now. What should HS 4.12.0.0 look like? All of this is like trying to nail jello to a tree. I think we just need to pick the most important tree and deal with that.

[TC1]

What is the Zigbee strategy for doing direct switch associations? Which Zigbee keypads compare most directly with keypads from Zooz or Inovelli? I'm guessing those Zigbee products may be a kind of preview of what to expect from Matter switches and keypads.

I agree with this sentiment, but right now it's wait and see. There are a number of Zigbee wall switch/dimmer units but they are designed for European aesthetic. Since Zigbee chips costs less than Z-wave, Zigbee will be the preferred radio network for Matter devices. A number of current home automaton players have already stated their Zigbee based hubs and devices will be upgradeable to Matter via an OTA.

The other problem with Zigbee to smartbulb direct associations is the 800lb gorilla in the room... Philips/Signify. Their "Friends of Hue" program is currently closed (from what I hear), which discourages people with coming out with large volume Zigbee based dimmers/switches.

If you're interested in Zigbee based wall switches, but like I said, European based design aesthetic:
https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale...ee+wall+switch

[upstatemike]

I agree with this sentiment, but right now it's wait and see. There are a number of Zigbee wall switch/dimmer units but they are designed for European aesthetic. Since Zigbee chips costs less than Z-wave, Zigbee will be the preferred radio network for Matter devices. A number of current home automaton players have already stated their Zigbee based hubs and devices will be upgradeable to Matter via an OTA.

The other problem with Zigbee to smartbulb direct associations is the 800lb gorilla in the room... Philips/Signify. Their "Friends of Hue" program is currently closed (from what I hear), which discourages people with coming out with large volume Zigbee based dimmers/switches.

If you're interested in Zigbee based wall switches, but like I said, European based design aesthetic:
https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale...ee+wall+switch

I have seen these but would not use them in any large installation. If Matter wants to displace Z-Wave they will need to figure out the Switch/Keypad/Bulb situation... unless all they really care about is unifying different sensor technologies to all work with Alexa and Google Home and Homekit. If that is the plan then the hype is really overblown and there is no rush for Homeseer to start thinking beyond Z-Wave any time soon.

[dmiller]

The OP asked an important question: "Is there a HomeSeer technology roadmap or even a plan?" Unfortunately, every roadmap or plan I have seen posted was rapidly withdrawn. It seems we are arguing about whether we should swab the deck with a mop, a Swiffer, or a Roomba. The covert and random course of the ship, to me, seems much more worthy of discussion. Just my 2¢.

Does Home Assistant have a plan? It's pretty much madness from a novice users perspective. I'm impressed by all the people without a software background who have tolerated the initial learning curb on that product. The power of Youtube I guess.

[dmiller]

Just saying that forcing people to buy more stuff build out a mesh is not a consumer friendly way to design a protocol. Contrast this to LoRa or Clear Connect that are pretty much just plug and play anywhere in you home without needing to lay down a path of devices to get the signal from point A to point B. I agree that Wi-Fi is not a good alternative but that is for other reasons than the need for Access Points. In fact it is the use of Z-Wave Access Points (Z-Nets) that helps mitigate the shortcomings of the mesh network design strategy.

There is no complex home automation without a human engineer, at least until there is real AI. So it's a hobby in most homes or a professional installation on the high end with products like Control 4.

Apple and Google have just dipped their toes into HA because customer support becomes an unholy mess if they go too far. Matter may improve interoperability but it won't reduce logical complexity of non-basic systems.

One risk term risk to z-wave market share is the half-assed implementation in Home Assistant.

[ewkearns]

Does Home Assistant have a plan? It's pretty much madness from a novice users perspective. I'm impressed by all the people without a software background who have tolerated the initial learning curb on that product. The power of Youtube I guess.

Apparently so...

https://www.taylordailypress.net/hom...computer-news/

[dmiller]

Apparently so...

https://www.taylordailypress.net/hom...computer-news/

Everything HASS does is incomplete. They haven't even fully implemented dat/time triggers in automation. The recommended z-wave implementation, Z-wave JS, doesn't allow parameter changes yet. Their "full backup" doesn't back up z-wave.

A reasonably complete Matter implementation by them isn't happening any time soon.

I like many aspects of Home Assistant. But its not run by people who understand building robust, complex home automation system that work reliably in real homes.

[TC1]

Everything HASS does is incomplete. They haven't even fully implemented dat/time triggers in automation. The recommended z-wave implementation, Z-wave JS, doesn't allow parameter changes yet. Their "full backup" doesn't back up z-wave.

A reasonably complete Matter implementation by them isn't happening any time soon.

I like many aspects of Home Assistant. But its not run by people who understand building robust, complex home automation system that work reliably in real homes.

..and the other 800 pound gorilla in the room that none of the Home Assistant fan boys like to talk about is that none of the open source Z-wave implementations are certified, probably because either the open source organizers do not have the money or the desire to do so. Hence why people have problems with some devices like locks. It's not like the organizers can just go to Silicon Labs for help...

[ewkearns]

Everything HASS does is incomplete. They haven't even fully implemented dat/time triggers in automation. The recommended z-wave implementation, Z-wave JS, doesn't allow parameter changes yet. Their "full backup" doesn't back up z-wave.

A reasonably complete Matter implementation by them isn't happening any time soon.

I like many aspects of Home Assistant. But its not run by people who understand building robust, complex home automation system that work reliably in real homes.

I'll believe Matter is a viable technology when I can buy a Matter [doohickey] that works with my system. Some people think HA is important enough to have a Homeseer connector. I know nothing of HA, so I can't comment on their capabilities or shortcomings.

OTOH, HA has spoken on the subject and that written material has lasted in the public eye for at least 4 months. That's more than I am accustomed to.