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  • New dishwasher x10 now not working

    Got a new bosch dishwasher installed and some of my x10 outlets and light switches stopped working. If I turn off the circuit to the dishwasher the x10 commands work again.

    Also odd is if the dishwasher is actually powered on the x10 work. It's like some kinda
    Issue with the dishwasher off. Is this classic signal sucking or noise?
    Any device I can put Inline to isolate the dishwasher? It's on its own dedicated circuit

  • #2
    I've had a Bosch dishwasher in the past, but did not experience any X10 problems. Your situation sounds odd in any case. I'm wondering if there is a wiring problem with the dishwasher, either during installation or during manufacture. A neutral wire from the wrong circuit perhaps?

    Three questions come to mind immediately: 1) Are the affected outlets and switches all on the same circuit and what is the relationship to the circuit the dishwasher is on? 2) Do you have an X10 signal strength meter? 3) What X10 PIM are you using?

    My guess is that the answer to (2) is No, and if so, then it may be worth while to visit Jeff Volp's web site. He makes an X10 meter that has gotten rave reviews. He also makes a CM11 emulator that has virtually eliminated signal problems in my system.
    Mike____________________________________________________________ __________________
    HS3 Pro Edition 3.0.0.548

    HW: Stargate | NX8e | CAV6.6 | Squeezebox | PCS | WGL 800RF, Rain8Net+ | RFXCOM | QSE100D | Vantage Pro | Green-Eye | X10: XTB-232, -IIR | Edgeport/8 | Way2Call | Ecobee3

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    • #3
      To answer your questions The dishwasher is on its own dedicated circuit. The x10 outlets are on different circuits around the house. Using cm11a. I also have an hca02 phase coupler installed.

      The dishwasher has an off/on button it. Only when its off do the x10 commands not work on some devices. When its on and operating the commands work or if I turn off the dedicated circuit to the dishwasher.

      I did watch the installer hard wire it in but can't be sure he got the wiring right. How can I verify wiring is correct without taking the dishwasher out?
      Last edited by proudx; February 7th, 2015, 08:43 AM.

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      • #4
        Sounds like the dishwasher is throwing noise onto the line (I would suspect the power supply). When the unit is running, the load across the line reduces the noise and your X10 devices can work properly.

        See this thread for a discussion about X10 noise filters and Jeff Volp's X10 interfaces. In post #4 I list the two X10 noise filter I use extensively around my house. You will probably need the AF120 for the dishwasher as the others are only good for 5 amp loads. Just search online for X10 AF120 and you'll find lots of places to get one.
        Best regards,
        -Mark-

        If you're not out on the edge, you're taking up too much room!
        Interested in 3D maps? Check out my company site: Solid Terrain Modeling

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        • #5
          Originally posted by mfisher View Post
          Sounds like the dishwasher is throwing noise onto the line (I would suspect the power supply). When the unit is running, the load across the line reduces the noise and your X10 devices can work properly.

          See this thread for a discussion about X10 noise filters and Jeff Volp's X10 interfaces. In post #4 I list the two X10 noise filter I use extensively around my house. You will probably need the AF120 for the dishwasher as the others are only good for 5 amp loads. Just search online for X10 AF120 and you'll find lots of places to get one.
          Since the dishwasher is on its own dedicated circuit would plugging this guy into another circuit still do the trick?

          I emailed Jeff an he recommended a 20A X10 XPF filter in series with the circuit that feeds the dishwasher to isolate it.

          What's the difference between the x10 af120 and the x10 xpf filter?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by proudx View Post
            The dishwasher has an off/on button it. Only when its off do the x10 commands not work on some devices.
            Does the on/off control start and stop the wash cycle? If the switch is on and a wash cycle ends does the switch remain in the on position? Do you see a problem with X10 performance then? Under what circumstances do you want the switch in the off position?

            I find it quite puzzling that turning the switch off causes a problem. I'm wondering if it is the on/off switch itself that is generating the noise.
            Mike____________________________________________________________ __________________
            HS3 Pro Edition 3.0.0.548

            HW: Stargate | NX8e | CAV6.6 | Squeezebox | PCS | WGL 800RF, Rain8Net+ | RFXCOM | QSE100D | Vantage Pro | Green-Eye | X10: XTB-232, -IIR | Edgeport/8 | Way2Call | Ecobee3

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Uncle Michael View Post
              Does the on/off control start and stop the wash cycle? If the switch is on and a wash cycle ends does the switch remain in the on position? Do you see a problem with X10 performance then? Under what circumstances do you want the switch in the off position?

              I find it quite puzzling that turning the switch off causes a problem. I'm wondering if it is the on/off switch itself that is generating the noise.
              The on/off switch turns on the unit so you can select wash cycle and options (ilimunating control panel LEDs) There's a separate start button to start the cycle. Once the cycle is complete the dishwasher leds remains on until the on/off switch is pressed to turn it off. (No illuminating LEDs on control panel)

              As Long as the dishwasher is powered on (leds on) regardless of if it is washing dishes, finished washing dishes or waiting on user to select cycle and wash options the x10 commands work fine on all circuits around house. Once powered off (no led lights on front) commands don't work on a few circuits and x10 devices.

              Btw this is the model
              http://www.bosch-home.com/us/product...HE3AR52UC.html
              Last edited by proudx; February 7th, 2015, 04:48 PM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by proudx View Post
                As Long as the dishwasher is powered on regardless of if it is washing dishes, finished washing dishes or waiting on user to select cycle and wash options the x10 commands work. Once powered off (no led lights on front) commands don't work.
                That is very puzzling. On the other hand, it would seem that just leaving the unit powered on is a fairly easy work around.

                One would think, though, that if it is powered off, then the internal circuitry of the dishwasher is disconnected from your breaker box just as completely as when the circuit breaker is off. That is, unless the switch is more than just a switch or it is miswired or malfunctioning. Could the switch be disconnecting the neutral instead of the hot wire?
                Mike____________________________________________________________ __________________
                HS3 Pro Edition 3.0.0.548

                HW: Stargate | NX8e | CAV6.6 | Squeezebox | PCS | WGL 800RF, Rain8Net+ | RFXCOM | QSE100D | Vantage Pro | Green-Eye | X10: XTB-232, -IIR | Edgeport/8 | Way2Call | Ecobee3

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Uncle Michael View Post
                  That is very puzzling. On the other hand, it would seem that just leaving the unit powered on is a fairly easy work around.

                  One would think, though, that if it is powered off, then the internal circuitry of the dishwasher is disconnected from your breaker box just as completely as when the circuit breaker is off. That is, unless the switch is more than just a switch or it is miswired or malfunctioning. Could the switch be disconnecting the neutral instead of the hot wire?
                  I'm not sure leaving the power on to it all the time would eat up a lot of kwh.

                  Now I'm worried my installer wired it up wrong. Would it even work if hot and neutral got reversed?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It's not clear what would be drawing power other than some LED indicator lamps if there isn't a wash cycle running.

                    I think it is unlikely that the hot and neutral are reversed, but not impossible. If they are, though, it would be a serious concern. I was just trying to think of a way that turning the switch off would have a different effect from turning the circuit breaker off, since all that does is remove power from the hot wire.
                    Mike____________________________________________________________ __________________
                    HS3 Pro Edition 3.0.0.548

                    HW: Stargate | NX8e | CAV6.6 | Squeezebox | PCS | WGL 800RF, Rain8Net+ | RFXCOM | QSE100D | Vantage Pro | Green-Eye | X10: XTB-232, -IIR | Edgeport/8 | Way2Call | Ecobee3

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by proudx View Post
                      I'm not sure leaving the power on to it all the time would eat up a lot of kwh.
                      This thread has gotten somewhat convoluted it seems. First of all any of the newer appliances that have electronic controls will have a small power supply for the microprocessor. This power supply will be running 27/7 whether the dishwasher is running or not. It will consume a very small amount of power and would factor into the energy star ratings for the appliance.

                      In your first post it sounds like your X-10 will not work when the dishwasher is off, but works OK when the dishwasher is running. The X-10 will also work when you turn the breaker to the dishwasher off. That would point to the standby power supply in the dishwasher generating enough of the right kind of noise to swamp some X-10 devices. The immediate solution would be a filter at the dishwasher rated for 20 amps. That filter would prevent the noise generated by the standby power supply in the dishwasher from getting back into your house circuitry.

                      It is a little problematic that the dishwasher is generating that much noise and could indicate a problem in the machine. Most all of the modern standby power supplies are switch mode because they offer greater efficiency. The problem with a switch mode supply is that it runs at 10-100khz as a square wave. This kind of circuit generates a ton of harmonics that can appear as 3-4X (and more) the fundamental frequency. Left unchecked, this noise will generate some powerful RF back into the AC supply. For FCC approval, they must be designed such that these harmonics as well as the fundamental frequency are not introduced back into the household circuit. This is usually done by a couple of turns around a ferrite core on each side of the line in to the power supply. There is also usually a large electrolytic and occasionally a small snubber circuit on the DC side of the bridge supplying this switch mode supply. Your problem may be because the design is not FCC compliant or one of the primary components in the standby power supply is defective. Your dishwasher also may be OK, just the X-10 is too sensitive to spurious noise. I don't know how you can figure it out other than call for service and tell them it is interfering with other equipment in your house when it is off and that you can prove it. The repair would be to replace the standby power supply, which is usually part of the main controller board on modern appliances. If they did replace that part and the problem persists you are left with it being a poor design or the X-10 devices are just too fussy.

                      The reason it no longer interferes with the X-10 when the dishwasher is running is because then the dishwasher is presenting enough load to the ac supply to dampen the noise generated by the standby power supply at the source.
                      Now I'm worried my installer wired it up wrong. Would it even work if hot and neutral got reversed?
                      It is probable that it would still work with the hot and neutral reversed because an AC supply doesn't really have a polarity, but that also would not be likely cause it to make more electrical noise. I would also guess that the odds are quite slim they reversed the hot and neutral. Since neutral and ground are usually bound at the breaker panel, reversing those two could cause a hazard (unlikely since it is a dedicated circuit) if there was ever a failure in the wiring, but again, the dishwasher would likely run.
                      Randy Prade
                      Aurora, CO
                      Prades.net

                      PHLocation - Pushover - EasyTrigger - UltraECM3 - Ultra1Wire3 - Arduino

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Uncle Michael View Post
                        It's not clear what would be drawing power other than some LED indicator lamps if there isn't a wash cycle running.

                        I think it is unlikely that the hot and neutral are reversed, but not impossible. If they are, though, it would be a serious concern. I was just trying to think of a way that turning the switch off would have a different effect from turning the circuit breaker off, since all that does is remove power from the hot wire.
                        There is an entire controller board running at standby. All pump, heater and valve controls are done by relays or solid state devices controlled by this controller. Modern appliances are never actually off, just in standby. From reading his first post, I don't think there is an X-10 switch controlling the dishwasher. He means when the dishwasher is actually running, the interference with the X-10 devices stops, but it is there when the dishwasher is not running.
                        Randy Prade
                        Aurora, CO
                        Prades.net

                        PHLocation - Pushover - EasyTrigger - UltraECM3 - Ultra1Wire3 - Arduino

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Uncle Michael View Post
                          It's not clear what would be drawing power other than some LED indicator lamps if there isn't a wash cycle running.

                          I think it is unlikely that the hot and neutral are reversed, but not impossible. If they are, though, it would be a serious concern. I was just trying to think of a way that turning the switch off would have a different effect from turning the circuit breaker off, since all that does is remove power from the hot wire.
                          The model does advertise 24/7 leak protection even when unit is turned off. (It is supposed to shutoff valve and drain water with pump if water gets too high in tub. Perhaps that is the difference between the off switch and turning the circuit off at the electrical box.

                          Ok I now see the post above about the standby power supply being suspect. Is it also possible that its not noise at all but signal suckage?

                          None the less sounds like I will have to get an electrician to wire the x10 filter behind the dishwasher in series. Can a plugin filter device work or is that not going to help since dishwasher is hard wired on its own circuit?
                          Last edited by proudx; February 7th, 2015, 06:21 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by proudx View Post
                            None the less sounds like I will have to get an electrician to wire the x10 filter behind the dishwasher in series. Can a plugin filter device work or is that not going to help since dishwasher is hard wired on its own circuit?
                            A hard-wired filter will be cleaner and can be located in a junction box next to your breaker panel. I see no advantage of using a plug-in filter.
                            Mike____________________________________________________________ __________________
                            HS3 Pro Edition 3.0.0.548

                            HW: Stargate | NX8e | CAV6.6 | Squeezebox | PCS | WGL 800RF, Rain8Net+ | RFXCOM | QSE100D | Vantage Pro | Green-Eye | X10: XTB-232, -IIR | Edgeport/8 | Way2Call | Ecobee3

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by rprade View Post
                              There is an entire controller board running at standby. All pump, heater and valve controls are done by relays or solid state devices controlled by this controller. Modern appliances are never actually off, just in standby. From reading his first post, I don't think there is an X-10 switch controlling the dishwasher. He means when the dishwasher is actually running, the interference with the X-10 devices stops, but it is there when the dishwasher is not running.
                              My interpretation is a bit different. There is a mysterious (to me) switch on the dishwasher that turns some functions off, but apparently leaves others running. When that switch is on, the dishwasher controls are available to select cycles, for example, but the dishwasher is not running unless the cycle is deliberately started.

                              Nonetheless, when this mysterious switch is in the on position, X10 functions are normal, but when that switch is off, there is X10 interference. If I am interpreting your arguments correctly, Randy, I would expect the behavior to be just the opposite.
                              Mike____________________________________________________________ __________________
                              HS3 Pro Edition 3.0.0.548

                              HW: Stargate | NX8e | CAV6.6 | Squeezebox | PCS | WGL 800RF, Rain8Net+ | RFXCOM | QSE100D | Vantage Pro | Green-Eye | X10: XTB-232, -IIR | Edgeport/8 | Way2Call | Ecobee3

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