Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

New dishwasher x10 now not working

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    I agree with Randy's assessment. The On/Off switch on the dishwasher is not a mechanical switch that connects and disconnects power from the other circuits within the appliance, but rather a simple momentary push button that provides a logic-level (ie; low voltage, low current) input to the microcontroller - which actually controls everything within in the unit. When AC power is applied to the unit (breaker turned on) the internal switching power supply is always on and the On/Off switch on the front panel does not turn this supply (or anything else within the unit) on and off.

    Here is how I understand the issue:
    Code:
    X10     Dishwasher State
    ----    ---------------------------
    Poor    "OFF"  - no display (AC power supplied to unit)
    Good    "ON"   - operating (washing, drying, etc.)
    ??      "ON"   - display visible, not washing or drying
    Good    "OFF"  - AC power removed from unit by turning breaker off
    To restate what Randy said in his post, you can kind of think of it like this: when the unit is operating there are other electrical loads within the unit (heater, motor, etc.) that "absorb" the noise being generated by the power supply and not much of the noise can escape back onto the power line. However, when the unit is "Off" (ie; sitting idle, displays off) all of the noise escapes the dishwasher and ends up back at the circuit breaker panel to infect the entire electrical system (well, only parts of it in this case).

    Installing any 20 amp in-line X10 filter is the best solution to the problem (sorry, I missed the fact that it was hard-wired into the wall in your early posts). This can be either a plug-in unit at or near the appliance (electrician will have to install an outlet and plug), or a wire-in device placed near the unit or at the breaker panel. Just be sure to use a 20 amp rated device as I see the dishwasher is rated at 12 amps.
    Best regards,
    -Mark-

    If you're not out on the edge, you're taking up too much room!
    Interested in 3D maps? Check out my company site: Solid Terrain Modeling

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by mfisher View Post
      Here is how I understand the issue:
      Code:
      X10     Dishwasher State
      ----    ---------------------------
      Poor    "OFF"  - no display (AC power supplied to unit)
      Good    "ON"   - operating (washing, drying, etc.)
      ??      "ON"   - display visible, not washing or drying
      Good    "OFF"  - AC power removed from unit by turning breaker off
      To restate what Randy said in his post, you can kind of think of it like this: when the unit is operating there are other electrical loads within the unit (heater, motor, etc.) that "absorb" the noise being generated by the power supply and not much of the noise can escape back onto the power line. However, when the unit is "Off" (ie; sitting idle, displays off) all of the noise escapes the dishwasher and ends up back at the circuit breaker panel to infect the entire electrical system (well, only parts of it in this case).
      Not to belabor this, but your table has a question mark at exactly the point the is troubling me. As the OP clearly explains in post #7, the problem does not occur if there are no heaters or pumps running - when it has completed a cycle and is waiting for another cycle to be started.
      As Long as the dishwasher is powered on (leds on) regardless of if it is washing dishes, finished washing dishes or waiting on user to select cycle and wash options the x10 commands work fine on all circuits around house. Once powered off (no led lights on front) commands don't work on a few circuits and x10 devices.
      Mike____________________________________________________________ __________________
      HS3 Pro Edition 3.0.0.548

      HW: Stargate | NX8e | CAV6.6 | Squeezebox | PCS | WGL 800RF, Rain8Net+ | RFXCOM | QSE100D | Vantage Pro | Green-Eye | X10: XTB-232, -IIR | Edgeport/8 | Way2Call | Ecobee3

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Uncle Michael View Post
        My interpretation is a bit different. There is a mysterious (to me) switch on the dishwasher that turns some functions off, but apparently leaves others running. When that switch is on, the dishwasher controls are available to select cycles, for example, but the dishwasher is not running unless the cycle is deliberately started.

        Nonetheless, when this mysterious switch is in the on position, X10 functions are normal, but when that switch is off, there is X10 interference. If I am interpreting your arguments correctly, Randy, I would expect the behavior to be just the opposite.
        After reading through the OP's posts, I tend to agree with you and it is puzzling. I still contend that the noise is being generated by the standby power supply. It is clear from reading his fourth post that the problem stops any time the unit is on - even when there are not other loads present to "absorb" the noise. I have seen some designs that use an extremely efficient power supply to keep the microcontroller alive, then revert to a different supply when the device is on. Others use a two-stage standby supply. These designs are sometimes required to get the standby power to less than 1-watt for the highest efficiency ratings. That would theoretically explain his situation where the noise goes away when the dishwasher is "on", because a totally different power supply would be running.


        Regardless, we know that the microcontroller is always alive on this unit because of the "AquaStop" leak detection/protection system. The controller has to be alive for this to work. A filter at the device should allow his X-10 devices to work reliably again.


        On a side note, I had a TED5000 as my first energy monitor. Even with the transmitter and gateway (receiver) on the same dedicated circuit, it would not communicate if a single UPS was operating in the house. We have quite a few. The only solution was to put an in-line filter at the breaker effectively filtering the supply to the TED5000 transmitter and gateway, isolating it from the rest of the house. I'm willing to bet that most, if not all of the UPS devices we have are FCC compliant, but any one of them would swamp the TED.
        Randy Prade
        Aurora, CO
        Prades.net

        PHLocation - Pushover - EasyTrigger - UltraECM3 - Ultra1Wire3 - Arduino

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by proudx View Post
          Is it also possible that its not noise at all but signal suckage?
          This is an interesting thread. Although well answered, I did not see a response to this question.

          My two cents is No it is not a signal sucker. It definately is noise. Signal suckers do not change state, they suck all the time they are plugged in, as it is typically a filter cap across the line presenting a very low impedance at X10 code frequency (sometimes if we are lucky, about 110kHz).

          In the FWIW column. I had a Samsung plasma flat screen in which the switching supply changed frequency with load. Perhaps that is the case here. In any event the in-line filter should work fine.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Dave W View Post
            In the FWIW column. I had a Samsung plasma flat screen in which the switching supply changed frequency with load. Perhaps that is the case here. In any event the in-line filter should work fine.
            Those are usually the dual mode (or multi-mode) designs I was referring to earlier. All of them vary the duty cycle of the switching to regulate output, but some of the ultra low power standby supplies operate at a lower frequency when in standby mode and at a much higher frequency when in operational mode. A higher frequency can generate more current with a smaller supply, but a lower frequency is much more efficient. I think ~100khz is common for standard switch mode power supplies currently, though it was not unusual for the early ones to operate at 10-20khz. The first dual mode I saw was in an LG plasma and switched between 80khz and 400khz from standby to normal operation. I think it was Samsung that demonstrated one that approached 1mhz under full load and reverted back to around 100khz in standby. IIRC X-10 is around 120khz for the carrier. If the Bosch uses a dual mode SMPS, its standby could be right at the X-10 sweet spot, then when the frequency increased for normal load conditions, it would no longer interfere.

            And I completely agree that it is not a "signal sucker".
            Randy Prade
            Aurora, CO
            Prades.net

            PHLocation - Pushover - EasyTrigger - UltraECM3 - Ultra1Wire3 - Arduino

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by rprade View Post
              IIRC X-10 is around 120khz for the carrier.
              You are correct.

              Like Brian Williams, I "mis-remembered" the PLC mod frequency. Thanks

              Comment

              Working...
              X