Insteon Groups

[martinl78]

Just got going with the Insteon plug-in. I've been trying to figure out how to do groups. I've noticed that the log shows group signaling activity where I have existing devices linked together. For example: 3 lamps in my bedroom that come on simultaneously with one button on the keypad or the nightstand controller.

However, trying to do this with Homeseer can be adventuresome. I also tried using some of the codes I saw in the log by submitting as raw data through the smarthome management piece and the only thing I could figure out how to do is turn on or off a single device.

Anyone know how to send group commands to devices? Or setup a group in homeseer?

Thanks.
Martin

[Oman]

You can not yet control groups from inside HomeSeer. As well you can't just duplicate messages you see coming from other devices because the source address is the primary method Insteon uses to determine group actions. This makes Insteon a bit harder to work with than some other technologies.

Jon

Just got going with the Insteon plug-in. I've been trying to figure out how to do groups. I've noticed that the log shows group signaling activity where I have existing devices linked together. For example: 3 lamps in my bedroom that come on simultaneously with one button on the keypad or the nightstand controller.

However, trying to do this with Homeseer can be adventuresome. I also tried using some of the codes I saw in the log by submitting as raw data through the smarthome management piece and the only thing I could figure out how to do is turn on or off a single device.

Anyone know how to send group commands to devices? Or setup a group in homeseer?

Thanks.
Martin

[Drake]

Concept of groups

Even through the insteon technology does not have a direct concept of groups, this can be simulated by direct control of a number of devices in response to a single action, correct? (I know this is a basic question, but wanted to make sure I was not missing something somewhere on this.)

[Oman]

Sure.

The issue is that Insteon does not have "Address Stacking" like X10 does. So if you have not pre-defined a group of lights to do something together, then they can't be controlled together.

With X10 HomeSeer does (can do) the following to get X10 lights to turn on at the same time:

X10 Commands: A1 B2 C3 ON

When the "ON" command hits all those lights will go on at the same time, albeit a bit later than if you had only one light to control.

With Insteon there is no "stacking" of addresses, so it looks like this:

Insteon Commands: 00.00.00 ON, 01.01.01 On, 02.02.02 On

In this case the lights go on one at a time, with some time in between.

If you had predefined this group of lights then

Insteon command: Group 0 from controller FF.FF.FF On

Would have turned those three lights on together.

So you can do very fast control of lights so long as you knew that you were going to control that group in the first place.

Jon

Even through the insteon technology does not have a direct concept of groups, this can be simulated by direct control of a number of devices in response to a single action, correct? (I know this is a basic question, but wanted to make sure I was not missing something somewhere on this.)

[Drake]

So Insteon command: Group 0 from controller FF.FF.FF On is a valid command to control groups on insteon devices today?

[Oman]

I'm not sure what you are asking. No matter what you put in the transmit command for the source address when the PLC actually sends out the command it always puts its own address in the source field of the Insteon data. As far as I know there is no way to spoof the source address of an Insteon command.

Group commands are broacast commands. They go to all devices. If the device sees that the source ID (The PLC) is in its links list and the group number matches then it will perform the action indicated by the link.

So if you have pre-set a group of devices to have the PLCs address in their link tables then you have a group. And that group will be activated if the PLC sends out a group activate broadcast with that group number.

I think the topic originally was about arbitrary groups vs. preset groups. There is no concept of arbitrary groups with Insteon. You control a preset group together or you control each device with an individual command.


Jon

So Insteon command: Group 0 from controller FF.FF.FF On is a valid command to control groups on insteon devices today?

[wuench]

From reading the insteon details whitepaper and the switch manual this is how I understand groups to work.

During linking, the switch stores the Source Address of the controller, a Group Number, and a default action (and ramp rate) in it's link table. The controller stores the controlled switches address and group number in it's link table. What I think we are currently missing is a way to store the link info for groups in the Powerlinc and maybe a way to send the group command to the Powerlinc. So maybe with an update from SH and then the plugin it will be available?

I am a little unclear on the default action storage in the switch as this is not documented in the whitepaper. But it must be the case, because the manual says you can set a switch to say 50% and when it gets the group command it will go to 50%. The controller has no idea of this action. I am thinking this default action just overrides the "ON" in the group command.

Unfortunately if this is correct, then we will never be able to program switches and groups remotely without manually putting switches in link mode and setting their state. That is, unless SH decides to make new commands for this purpose. There don't appear to be any commands to program or read a switches link table in the protocol as documented in the whitepaper.

[Oman]

Everything is there in the SDM that is needed to get this working other than stability. At this point I brick (but they factory reset ok) about 1/4 of the switches that I remotely program with the SDM. It is a very tedious process of reading and writing the memory directly in the switch and the SDM just puts the wrong stuff in the wrong place sometimes.

When this is all working the plug-in will have the ability to create new groups and control them directly. All the under the hood stuff will be taken care of. No tap-linking will be needed.

Jon

From reading the insteon details whitepaper and the switch manual this is how I understand groups to work.

During linking, the switch stores the Source Address of the controller, a Group Number, and a default action (and ramp rate) in it's link table. The controller stores the controlled switches address and group number in it's link table. What I think we are currently missing is a way to store the link info for groups in the Powerlinc and maybe a way to send the group command to the Powerlinc. So maybe with an update from SH and then the plugin it will be available?

I am a little unclear on the default action storage in the switch as this is not documented in the whitepaper. But it must be the case, because the manual says you can set a switch to say 50% and when it gets the group command it will go to 50%. The controller has no idea of this action. I am thinking this default action just overrides the "ON" in the group command.

Unfortunately if this is correct, then we will never be able to program switches and groups remotely without manually putting switches in link mode and setting their state. That is, unless SH decides to make new commands for this purpose. There don't appear to be any commands to program or read a switches link table in the protocol as documented in the whitepaper.

[wuench]

That's good news. I am glad they put that in, running around the house programming switches would drive me nuts. I just ordered my SDK this morning, it was either that or a trial package of UPB stuff. :-)

[Oman]

Well, UPB has a big jump start as they have a complete remote programming tool and a stable SDK and PLC. Hopefully it won't be too long before we can say the same thing for Insteon.

Jon

That's good news. I am glad they put that in, running around the house programming switches would drive me nuts. I just ordered my SDK this morning, it was either that or a trial package of UPB stuff. :-)