Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Help! Severe noise on line preventing UPB from working!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Help! Severe noise on line preventing UPB from working!

    OK, I give up. I've got an uncooperative neighbor who is 'inside' my nearest power line transformer who is throwing off so much interference that my UPB is highly unreliable.

    My measured noise level is 15-25, and this is enough that many UPB devices can't communicate with the controller.

    It's not an option to get them to stop. I have no idea what they are doing - perhaps an indoor pot farm.

    So what can I do?

    Is there any sort of filter I can install at my main breaker?

    Is there something that will 'smooth' or average out the wave form slightly?

    Is it practical to install some sort of transformer there? What would this be likely to cost?

    FYI it's a 600 amp panel (ask the building inspectors why; we only seem to use about 200 amps as far as I can tell).

    Any advice appreciated,

    Jerry

    #2
    as far as I know there are no whole house block/filter devices specifically for UPB. I was having really bad x10 noise coming in from my neighbors house and installed a blocking coupler/filter (Leviton) and am now switching to upb...not seeing any noise trouble w/ upb, but i may not have as bad of a situation as you have. Do you by chance have a whole house blocking coupler/filter installed?
    Plugins:
    BLLogMonitor, BLGarbage, BLBackup, BLOutGoingCalls, BLUps, BLRfid, JvEss, DooMotion, Applied Digital Ocelot, AC RF Processor, UltraMon, PJC AVR 430, UPB, Rain8net, DSC Panel, JRiver Media center, Windows Media Player, SageMediaCenter, SnevlCID, MCSTemperature.

    Comment


      #3
      This is the very reason I use Z-Wave. The noise on the powerline isn't an issue. I would contact the manufacture of your switches and get them involved. The UPB manufactures are normally responsive and helpful.
      💁‍♂️ Support & Customer Service 🙋‍♂️ Sales Questions 🛒 Shop HomeSeer Products

      Comment


        #4
        I agree, Simply Automated is very helpful. But only 15-25??? Call me when it's 40

        When I talked to Brad at SA about my line noise, he suggested I install a non-inverting phase coupler (not one SA sells, since those are inverting, but one from PCS or HAI). Because it's non-inverting, it should attenuate noise that is on both phases. I haven't given it a try yet since my noise only happens occasionally rather than all the time like yours, but if you decide to give it a go, let me know how it works out for you.

        Comment


          #5
          Most all good X10 noise filters will also attenuate noise that interferes with UPB. There is also a chance that your neighbor is operating some equipment that is distorting the waveform coming into your place. If that is the case then the power company is required (assuming you are in the US) to correct the situation, no matter what it involves. It is easy for them to test/measure and they will usually come out to check if you tell them that you suspect this type of problem.

          Jon


          Originally posted by DeLicious View Post
          I agree, Simply Automated is very helpful. But only 15-25??? Call me when it's 40

          When I talked to Brad at SA about my line noise, he suggested I install a non-inverting phase coupler (not one SA sells, since those are inverting, but one from PCS or HAI). Because it's non-inverting, it should attenuate noise that is on both phases. I haven't given it a try yet since my noise only happens occasionally rather than all the time like yours, but if you decide to give it a go, let me know how it works out for you.
          Jon Ort
          JonOrt@The--Orts.com
          (Remove the dashes in the address, spam is getting out of hand)

          Comment


            #6
            My research shows that most X10 Noise filters will also work with UPB. I don't have first hand knowledge of this though.
            -Larry

            A member of "The HA Pioneer Group", MyWebSite

            Plugins:
            VWS, AB8SS, lrpSpeak, Calendar, Arduino, Harmony, BlueIris, Sprinklers, ZipBackup...

            Hardware:
            Intel NUC8i7BEH1 running Windows 10 Pro headless, HS3 Pro, Plex running on Synology dual High Availability DS-1815+ NAS (24Tb each), Synology Surveillance Station running on DS-416 Slim (8Tb), Samsung SmartThings, Google Home, Alexa, Hubitat Elevation, ZNET, Ubiquiti UniFi Network, Davis Vantage Pro II Weather Station. Whole house speaker system using a couple of AB8SS switches. Vantage Pro II Weather Station, Rain8Net Sprinklers, Hubitat Elevation, Google Home, Alexa, DSC Security System, Ubiquiti UniFi Network.

            Comment


              #7
              First, I'd try to analyze it if you can. Get a scope, and with the proper hookup, look at your waveform. Do you have a friend or neighbor who might help if you don't have a scope.

              If it is noise, I would suggest an X-10 whole-house powerline filter.

              By the way Rupp, Z-Wave runs on 900 MHz which is some of the most congested airspace there is. Everything from baby monitors to cordless phones runs on that band, and powerline interference is certainly no more likely than radio interference, and its easier to filter out. Have radio interference, and about the best you can do is cover your house with tin foil.

              Comment


                #8
                Just a thought...

                Have you tried lodging a complaint with the utility company ?

                Comment


                  #9
                  Thanks for all the advice.

                  1. I do have a whole-house Leviton X-10 repeating coupler (I don't think it's called a blocker or filter). I had this OFF when I measured the noise. When it's on I get more or less the same noise.

                  2. FYI when I turn off various sub panels (I have 4 I think), the noise increases, so that's good evidence that it's on the outside.

                  3. A while back a friend with a scope did come over, and measured the waveform. There was a 'notch' right where the UPB signals were supposed to be. I used a laptop to measure the UPB noise at several neighbors houses, and could easily triangulate it to my nearest neighbor. When I complained and asked to come over to take a look, the noise mysteriously disappeared. That was months ago. Now it's back. They don't like people 'snooping' around.

                  4. Last time, I got the utility involved, and they did a bunch of testing. Their attitude was pretty much that as long as the power works, they aren't responsible for people attempting to put data down the line. I could try them again, but it will take months and a lot of appointments to get any response - which isn't likely to be positive.

                  5. I have an inverting coupler, but not a non-inverting coupler. I doubt this would have any effect, as I am using a 2-phase CIM, which puts the signal down both sides of the line simultaneously.

                  I suspect the problem is that the devices themselves don't 'broadcast' their data at a high enough amplitude. Is there a way to turn this up?

                  How about using one of the other transmission modes? Is there such a thing and can I do this?

                  Thanks,

                  Jerry

                  Comment


                    #10
                    where did you get a 2-phase CIM?

                    the amplitude of the signal is really quite adequate, even across phases. you may try a standard 1-phase CIM and a non-inverting phase coupler. it would attenuate the noise, and the signal should still be able to reach across the phases rather than laying down the UPB signal on both phases with the noise that high on both phases. in fact, the inverting phase coupler may be helping the noise cross phases as well.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      A whole house noise filter for X10 will help clean up the power in general. It should attenuate in the UPB area of the waveform as well, although not quite as much as for X10.

                      Jon


                      Originally posted by DeLicious View Post
                      where did you get a 2-phase CIM?

                      the amplitude of the signal is really quite adequate, even across phases. you may try a standard 1-phase CIM and a non-inverting phase coupler. it would attenuate the noise, and the signal should still be able to reach across the phases rather than laying down the UPB signal on both phases with the noise that high on both phases. in fact, the inverting phase coupler may be helping the noise cross phases as well.
                      Jon Ort
                      JonOrt@The--Orts.com
                      (Remove the dashes in the address, spam is getting out of hand)

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I don't think this is related but it very well could be.

                        I had the strangest thing happen yesterday. For 2 hours my UPB just stopped responding at all. I looked in the upstart an none of my devices were being found and the noise was off the meter. There's nothing new in the house, and beyond the air conditioner nothing was running, and that's been running since early july.

                        I finally came to the conclusion after flipping off most circuits in the house that it had to be coming from outside somehow. After two hours or so it disappeared and things were back to normal, no noise, good signal, etc.

                        This is the first time i've seen this in 6 months or so into my conversion to UPB. I'm using an HAI phase coupler, and most devices are also HAI but i don't see how that effects anything. I'm just a little confused as to what was going on. It does bring up a question or two though.

                        1.
                        This is the first time i've seen this, but maybe it's not the first time it's happened since i wouldn't know if i were not home. Is there anyway to know from the logs when a device fails to respond or would that need to be in debug mode?

                        2.
                        Is there any testing equipment for UPB such as there is for X10? Upstart was helpful but since i had to keep the computer running to use it didn't allow me to test as i do with X10, circuit at a time and from one circuit to the other.

                        BTW

                        X10 devices were not effected and continued to respond during the outtage, Go figure
                        Marty
                        ------
                        XPpro SP3 /w HS Standard 2.5.0.80, HSTouch Server - 1.0.0.70, HSTouch Client 1.0.0.73 HSTouch Android - 1.0.0.2, HSTouch iPhone - 1.0.0.2
                        Playing with HS3 a bit but it's just play at this point.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          These are exactly the symptoms I have experienced half a dozen times over the past year or so... I just bought a non-inverting phase coupler on the advice of Brad over at SA since it would attenuate noise on both phases (rather than propogate it). I also have no idea where my noise is coming from.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I just hate this kind of mystery, now that it's happened once you're forever waiting for it to happen again, and of course it'll be at the most inopportune time.
                            Marty
                            ------
                            XPpro SP3 /w HS Standard 2.5.0.80, HSTouch Server - 1.0.0.70, HSTouch Client 1.0.0.73 HSTouch Android - 1.0.0.2, HSTouch iPhone - 1.0.0.2
                            Playing with HS3 a bit but it's just play at this point.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              yes, inopportune times indeed:
                              1. going to bed... can't turn out the lights!
                              2. leaving the house... my garage door opener has power controlled by UPB, so it can't be opened when unintended... but of course, if i can't turn it on, i can't leave house.
                              3. coming home late at night... the complete opposite of going to bed, obviously

                              but when it all comes down to it... i love me some UPB. i can't imagine i would even still be into this hobby if i had some of the problems a few others have had with insteon (which was what i wanted to use initially).

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X