X10 proxy to work around powerline noise issues? [Feature Request]

[madbrain]

I am experiencing major powerline issues in home, unfortunately, like many others. Too many devices in the home to filter. Signal gets through almost all the time to a few rooms. To others, almost never. It worked the day the XPS4 switches were wired by the electrician, of course. But not afterwards :-(

Many of my outlets were recently converted to surge protector outlets, and that killed X10 signals and powerline ethernet AV1200 signals as well at the vast majority of them. There is only one outlet left in my home office downstairs in the front where X10 signals still get through, despite everything except the CM11A being filtered. X10 commands typically reach my home theater, porch, and terrace. They rarely reach the backyard, upstairs master bedroom, or rear upper deck.

I'm wondering if we can improve X10 communication a little bit by bypassing some of the noise between rooms. I'm thinking maybe have a few Raspberry Pi Zero, each with a CM11A or CM15A, located in different rooms, and each listening on an HTTP interface. Then, the main X10 plug-in would select which Pi/CM11A to use depending on the X10 code. It could be as simple as mapping certain house codes to certain Pis, depending on how your devices are wired. Or it could be more of a matrix with specific house code / number combination assigned to specific Pis.

It would be a somewhat expensive solution still, with component shortages, and CM15A often going for $50+. It would use a bit more power as well, for each Pi, but really shouldn't be too much. If you have small numbers of X10 devices in a few rooms located far apart, it might be good enough, though, and cheaper than replacing all X10 devices, especially hardwired devices. It might also eliminate the need for X10 amplifiers/phase couplers.

[Guest]

If you already tried Phase coupler, filters, amplifiers and still have issues, I would definitely start migrating to another platform. I had a large X10 install base, hardwired.
Went through the whole set of known issues, installed phase couplers, ordered XPPF by the pallet...and got fed up.

Migrating is a significant time/money investment but worth every penny. No more headaches with choppy signal and lack of device feedback. X10 was great, I still have a CM15 and some 240v relays, but X10 will turn 50 soon and it's really showing it's age...

Now using Wifi/Zigbee and couldn't be happier.

Btw if you are on a budget and have some tech skills, check on the Wifi/Tasmota side, average cost per module is about the same as what standard X10 used to be.

[madbrain]

If you already tried Phase coupler, filters, amplifiers and still have issues, I would definitely start migrating to another platform. I had a large X10 install base, hardwired.
Went through the whole set of known issues, installed phase couplers, ordered XPPF by the pallet...and got fed up.

I have a phase coupler, XPPF, a bunch of other filters, 4 to 6 AF120, and 10amp filters. Probably more filters than X10 devices.
Have not tried amplifiers.

Migrating is a significant time/money investment but worth every penny. No more headaches with choppy signal and lack of device feedback. X10 was great, I still have a CM15 and some 240v relays, but X10 will turn 50 soon and it's really showing it's age...

Yes, agree. But if you have a lot of devices, hardwired ones especially, and you have to pay an electrician to uninstall them / install new devices, it may make sense to make another attempt to salvage things the way I suggested. I just don't know if it would work. I do have two CM11A, but only one serial cable for them. Could play with it if there was an open-source X10 plug-in to modify.

Now using Wifi/Zigbee and couldn't be happier.

Wifi is still very problematic in my home as there is no Ethernet for the APs. I have 6 Unifi APs, some double-bridged. The bridging causes some packet loss. Double-bridging even more so. Not conducive to good Wifi calls when behind a double-Wifi bridge. And of course, nearly zero cell signal from any operator inside the house. The T-mobile cellspot that broadcasts a 4G LTE signal off ISP (wired comcast) only reaches about 1/4 of the house. The rest has just about no cell signal, so Wifi calls are the only option.
If I ran Ethernet where all the APs are / need to be, I believe Wifi would be much more reliable. It's thousands of $$$ to open walls/ceilings/etc to run the wire, and then patch / retexture / repaint. Very likely a 5 figure job based on quotes I have gotten.

Zigbee range is problematic. I have a Silver Springs E SmartMeter, Zigbee device, and a Rainforest Eagle Zigbee gateway. They communicate only about 20ft away. Anything more than that, and there is no wireless connection. The house is built of very thick materials ... Maybe adding Zigbee devices to extend the network would help propagate the signal. I just haven't tried.
Z-wave is supposed to be better range than Zigbee, and that's probably what I'll try next, but the chip shortage probably means it may be a while before I do.

Btw if you are on a budget and have some tech skills, check on the Wifi/Tasmota side.

My hardware skills are close to non-existent. Software skills a lot better.

Just Googled Tasmoda. I'm really wary of using devices that each depend on Wifi. Wifi standards get updated all the time, for security reasons if nothing else.

IoT devices that run over Wifi need complex firmware that'll run over Wifi, but also TCP/IP stacks, and other things like TLS that also evolves over time. Vendors don't support their hardware forever. I would also likely run out of IP addresses on my LAN subnet by the time I made every device as smart as I wanted to. Just the number of bulbs in my home alone is close to 256. I wouldn't want to control bulbs, though, but fixtures. And granted, X10 also has a 256 code limit, and isn't secure. But the fact that it's a stable interface is a huge point in favor. Too bad powerline communication is so unreliable.

Seems like Z-wave has a max of 232 devices, and that's a limit I may very well run into, sigh.
Whereas Zigbee doesn't have this limit.

[tenholde]

I converted from X10 to UPB years ago, and have only minor issues with line noise that were easily solved.

[Rupp]

If you want to stay you should try some type of amplifier but many times this just amplifies the noise to higher levels as well. I'm all Z-Wave and it's so much easier than X10 ever was. I still have one X10 device in service and it keeps on ticking. If only todays hardware was as robust as the X10 is/was.

[Pete]

Here have my X10 powerline controllers plugged in to their own outlets connected to their own breakers in the panel. Same for UPB. I ran serial cables from the controllers to the server room. It's been like this since the 1990's. To watch for noise I using an older Elk X10 signal meter. For X10 use CM11A's and Volp X10 dual phased controllers. No noise by the rack with 4 1500 Cyberpower UPS's. On the other side telco wall using an APC UPS and do not see any noise. Over the years did see noise with a neighbor installing a noisy pool pump and my AC compressor motor going.

I only utilize X10 for Christmas decorations once a year. Still utilizing two W800's (serial) for testing some wireless devices.

Also testing a Tasmota 433Mhz wireless hub connected to a few 433Mhz outdoor wireless PIRs which are working fine with same batteries for the last 6 months.

Note both homes are using metal conduit and metal boxes.

Doing Alexa devices in both homes managed on one account (Alexa Show and Dot devices).

Base wall switches here in house #1 is UPB. (I do also have Zigbee and ZWave and WiFi (Tasmota / Espurna) plugged in.

In house #2 doing all wireless automation. Tamota in wall switches, Ring Alarm (with Ring to MQTT plugin). Tasmota temperature sensors et al.

Using Ruckus WAPs in both homes.

Arris SB6190 ==> PFSense firewall ==> managed L2 Gb POE and standard managed switches plus Ruckus POE WAPs. X 2

Base infrastructure is XFinity cable internet with aux T-Mobile LTE modem for failover.



I just recently configured two Tasmota in wall (in metal boxes) switches for the retired neighbors and currently testing them connected to my WAP...works fine.

Here is what I see for the neighbors Garage Coach lights Tasmota switch (check out the signal strength) on my home network. These are Martin Jerry Dimmers modded with current version of Tasmota.

Program Version 10.1.0(tasmota)
Build Date & Time 2021-12-08T14:47:33
Core/SDK Version 2_7_4_9/2.2.2-dev(38a443e)
Uptime 57T23:23:35
Flash write Count 352 at 0xF4000
Boot Count 11
Restart Reason Power On
Friendly Name 1 GarageCoachLamps

AP2 SSId (RSSI) SSID (84%, -58 dBm) 11n
Hostname GarageCoachLamps
MAC Address A4:E5:7C:19:81:59
IP Address (wifi) 192.168.244.243

[madbrain]

I converted from X10 to UPB years ago, and have only minor issues with line noise that were easily solved.

Thanks. I hadn't heard of UPB. I am really wary of any powerline technology at this point. how serious were those "minor noise issues", and what did it take to resolve them ?
I have a mansion with hundreds of devices, between plug-in things and appliances. And almost 250 light bulbs of various types, but mostly LEDs. The main electrical panel outdoors has all its circuits full. There are two indoor subpanels also, both pretty far away from the main, one of which is also full. Another subpanel for solar, too, near the main one outdoors.

Even modern AV1200 powerline technology couldn't negotiate at all at any speed after I replaced outlets with Leviton surge protector outlets. Before that, it would typically negotiate a speed between 6-50 Mbps, nowhere close to the "1200" from the marketing folks.

What chance do you think UPB has in that sort of environment, vs X10 ?

[madbrain]

If you want to stay you should try some type of amplifier but many times this just amplifies the noise to higher levels as well. I'm all Z-Wave and it's so much easier than X10 ever was. I still have one X10 device in service and it keeps on ticking. If only todays hardware was as robust as the X10 is/was.

Thanks. I'll definitely try Z-Wave when the chip shortage ends, and I'm working again and have more disposable income

[tenholde]

Thanks. I hadn't heard of UPB. I am really wary of any powerline technology at this point. how serious were those "minor noise issues", and what did it take to resolve them ?
I have a mansion with hundreds of devices, between plug-in things and appliances. And almost 250 light bulbs of various types, but mostly LEDs. The main electrical panel outdoors has all its circuits full. There are two indoor subpanels also, both pretty far away from the main, one of which is also full. Another subpanel for solar, too, near the main one outdoors.

Even modern AV1200 powerline technology couldn't negotiate at all at any speed after I replaced outlets with Leviton surge protector outlets. Before that, it would typically negotiate a speed between 6-50 Mbps, nowhere close to the "1200" from the marketing folks.

What chance do you think UPB has in that sort of environment, vs X10 ?

While I have had good luck with UPB, it is prone to powerline issues, but nothing like X10. Much more powerful signal, etc. I have not tried Zwave, but have about 15 ZigBee devices and they have performed well for me.

[madbrain]

While I have had good luck with UPB, it is prone to powerline issues, but nothing like X10. Much more powerful signal, etc. I have not tried Zwave, but have about 15 ZigBee devices and they have performed well for me.

Can you share any more details about the UPB powerline issues, and how hard it was to fix them ?
Ballpark estimate on number of plug-in devices, hardwired appliances and lightbulbs on your power lines also helps. Are we talking 50, 100, 200, 1000+ ?

[dmagerl]

Many times it really isnt a noise issue, its a signal suck issue. Each X10 device, each bulb, each Line filter, each switching power supply, puts a load on any X10 signal on the line. Pretty soon its sucked down below the threshold at which any receiver can detect it. You need a really good repeater, not a coupler, to get things working again. If you dont have a meter that can measure X10 signal, you should try to get one. Its an essential troubleshooting device. BTW, decreasing signal or raising the noise level basically do the same thing. They both decrease the signal to noise ratio at a receiver and are indistinguishable from each other without some sort of measuring device.

If you havent already looked at it, the XTB-IIR is probably the best repeater on the market. It just blows every other repeater out of the water with regards to signal strength and can just blast through any noise or signal suck in your wiring. Its expensive though. In todays environment with every AC device on the power line having its own switching power supply and corresponding RF noise filters, X10 is pretty well next to impossible to get working without the massive signal output this repeater puts out.
https://jvde.us/xtb-iir/

[tenholde]

Can you share any more details about the UPB powerline issues, and how hard it was to fix them ?
Ballpark estimate on number of plug-in devices, hardwired appliances and lightbulbs on your power lines also helps. Are we talking 50, 100, 200, 1000+ ?

I have about 200 UPB devices in my home. I installed a REPEATER (not a bridge) at the main breaker box. I've installed a few filters on several computers and TVs. I found some brands of LEDs are very noisy (changed brand).

The easiest way for me to find and resolve signal sucks and noise was acquire a second PIM that I put on my laptop, and then plug it into different places around the house to find source of noise.

Just a reminder, you will need to do similar things to get a good wireless network to work, ie Zwave and Zigbee

[mfisher]

I'm wondering if we can improve X10 communication a little bit by bypassing some of the noise between rooms. I'm thinking maybe have a few Raspberry Pi Zero, each with a CM11A or CM15A, located in different rooms, and each listening on an HTTP interface. Then, the main X10 plug-in would select which Pi/CM11A to use depending on the X10 code. It could be as simple as mapping certain house codes to certain Pis, depending on how your devices are wired. Or it could be more of a matrix with specific house code / number combination assigned to specific Pis.

It would be a somewhat expensive solution still, with component shortages, and CM15A often going for $50+. It would use a bit more power as well, for each Pi, but really shouldn't be too much. If you have small numbers of X10 devices in a few rooms located far apart, it might be good enough, though, and cheaper than replacing all X10 devices, especially hardwired devices. It might also eliminate the need for X10 amplifiers/phase couplers.

So, what you are asking might be possible. I would have to make a special version of the plugin for you to make this work, but I think a good deal of the code is in place for it. I've never tested this functionality so I could be completely mis-judging the complexities of actually making this work in HS4 (mostly it's the UI the stuff, not the actual functionality).

Basically, you'd run the plugin with an X10 interface on one or more separate computers (Win/Lin/R-Pi) and connect them to your LAN. Each instance of the plugin would need a special setup (maybe in the ini) with unique identifiers so HS can differentiate them from each other. Each plugin instance runs as a stand-alone exe and connects to HS via the LAN. You will need a good, stable network connection for this to be reliable, and I'm hesitant to recommend trying this on your WiFi network given the issues you've outlined above. In HS, you'd have to choose which plugin instance to use when creating a new device, and only that plugin instance/X10 interface would be used for its 'owned' devices. There would be no provision for mapping an HS device to multiple plugin instances.

As others have mentioned above, really good repeaters like the XTB-IIR (not phase couplers) will go a very long way toward resolving X10 signal strength issues. I've been using X10 since the late 70's and am still using it as my primary lighting control. I've worked hard to reduce the noise levels and have 99.9% reliability. Yes, there are rare little issues, but I've not had to change to a new technology nor spend the $$ to do so, and I'm still using modules that I purchased back in the 80's - they just don't build 'em like they used to!

Let me know if you're interested in pursuing the multi-instance remote plugin path and I'll look into the what the level of effort might be when I get a chance. Also, if you've not done so, please take a moment to read this post so you understand my situation: https://forums.homeseer.com/forum/li...ead-this-first

Best regards,
-Mark-

[madbrain]

You need a really good repeater, not a coupler, to get things working again.

The 4826A Signalinc I have is both a coupler and a repeater.

If you dont have a meter that can measure X10 signal, you should try to get one. Its an essential troubleshooting device.

Where would I get one ?

If you havent already looked at it, the XTB-IIR is probably the best repeater on the market. It just blows every other repeater out of the water with regards to signal strength and can just blast through any noise or signal suck in your wiring. Its expensive though.

Jeff sold the last of his XTB-IIR recently, so that is no longer an option. I couldn't find any used one for sale, either. My electrical panels, especially the main one, are way overloaded with quad breakers and there is no room to install that sort of device, or probably anything else without a very expensive main panel change.It's a 200amp panel, but with a very limited number of breaker spaces, I think just 20 unfortunately. As I'm not working at the moment, and I wouldn't touch the main panel myself, I really want to avoid anything that requires paying an electrician to do. Putting together a few Pi Zero might just be inexpensive enough, though. The difficulty is in the software, but I'm a software developer.

[madbrain]

I have about 200 UPB devices in my home. I installed a REPEATER (not a bridge) at the main breaker box. I've installed a few filters on several computers and TVs. I found some brands of LEDs are very noisy (changed brand).

Which brands did you find noisy, and which ones did you settle for ?
Mine are mostly FEIT electric, from Costco. There are over 200, and changing brands isn't something I would really contemplate, as that would have a 4 figure cost. Most of them are fairly large, BR30 or BR40 flood lights.

The easiest way for me to find and resolve signal sucks and noise was acquire a second PIM that I put on my laptop, and then plug it into different places around the house to find source of noise.

What do you mean by PIM ? Plug-in module ? If you have 200 devices, I would assume you have more than one PIM. Unless it means something else.

Just a reminder, you will need to do similar things to get a good wireless network to work, ie Zwave and Zigbee

Surely you don't mean I would have to unplug electrical devices, or change LEDs, to get ZWave or Zigbee networks to work, do you ?
I thought those were mostly limited by radio waves, depending on distance, and thickness of indoor wall materials, as well as how many other things are operator in nearby bands.

Zwave is on 908.42 MHz in the US and shouldn't have too many issues. My DECT 6.0 at 1.9 GHz works anywhere on my property, indoor or outdoors, with just one base. Wifi at 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz on the other hand require many wireless APs. Zigbee frequency is 2.4 GHz, shared with Wifi, and that's probably a negative for me.
I have a wireless doorbell system that uses 433 MHz also, that works perfectly anywhere on the property. 10 doorbells to hear them all from anywhere, though. Getting old isn't cheap with minor hearing decline, but it's mostly the very thick building materials - solid wood doors, noise-insulated walls, etc. that are killing wireless signals. Cell signals don't stand a chance also, but that's because of terrain and distance to cell towers, not the building