2441TH devices not updating. Are polling events required?

[mrceolla]

My dad has two of these and none of the devices appear to change value on their own. If I poll, humidity and temperature are updated, but a thermostat triggering "heat" and "off" isn't registering. Do I need to setup events to poll every few minutes? Or should these devices be sending updates to HS on their own?

[mrceolla]

I setup polling for every 5 minutes. The timestamp of the humidity and temperature updates each time, even if there isn't a value change, and even with that "Do not update device last change time if device value does not change" checkbox checked. None of the other devices on the thermostat group update when polled. I'm not sure if they're supposed to, or how I'm supposed to determine if the heat/AC/fan are running. Also, none of my HVAC Unit devices have ever updated. I created a single HVAC unit and linked it to two different thermostats.

Nothing seems to be working correctly. Please help.

[JimSpy]

I created a single HVAC unit and linked it to two different thermostats.

I don't know the first thing about HVAC, but somehow that sounds a bit...counterintuitive? I mean, won't they be fighting each other?

[mrceolla]

I don't know the first thing about HVAC, but somehow that sounds a bit...counterintuitive? I mean, won't they be fighting each other?

I don't know either, but that's how my Dad says it's setup. They have one furnace/fan and one AC unit, but two thermostats, one on each floor of their condo. It was that way when they moved in. He's not aware of there being any sort of zone control. If one thermostat says to heat or cool, it does. I'm not sure what would happen if one said to heat, and the other to cool. Maybe my Dad isn't aware of something.

I could see how having 1 device attached to 2 thermostats in this plugin could cause a problem if this situation wasn't considered. Hoping to hear from the dev soon.

[nfrobertson]

When the plugin is first setup to communicate with the 2441TH, there are commands sent to the thermostats to cause it to automatically send temp, humidity etc. updates to the plugin. It's worth noting the thermostat itself decides how often to do that and usually it requires a 2 degree change for an update to be sent. It is possible that there was a problem during initial setup such that these commands were not successfully registered with the thermostat. This can happen when there are not enough insteon devices between the Insteon hub and the thermostat to successfully repeat the commands. The Insteon thermostats are RF only devices and require other Insteon devices to repeat the commands onto the powerline to be successful.

If you look under the menu PLUGINS -> Insteon Thermostat -> Insteon Thermostat Config and click the Thermostats tab, you will see the thermostats registered. There is a control button there to "Update Links" Give that a shot and with any luck you will start to get the updates. I'd recommend only doing one thermostat then watching the log to see if the updates come in. If you can get one working correctly then switch to the other and update its links too.

[mrceolla]

Thank you for your reply.

Communication shouldn't be an issue. They have many dual band devices throughout the house, and each poll of these devices seems to complete successfully.

I ran "Update Links" on just one of the two thermostats. I waited a couple minutes even after the page seemed to indicate the operation was done. I then polled the thermostat and still only see the temperature and humidity values coming in. Should I see others when polling?

Also, what should I expect to happen when one of the thermostats calls for heat? What should happen on the thermostat devices in HS, and what should happen on the HVAC devices in HS?

Is there a particular setting on the device itself that needs to be set a certain way for all of this to work? Apologies for the stupid question but I'm trying to do this all remotely and have never touched one of these thermostats.

How many links per thermostat should appear in the PLM link database?

During one of the add attempts of one of the thermostats, I was given an incorrect Insteon address. The add failed so I deleted and created a new thermostat with a slightly different name (annoying requirement). This add attempt worked fine, but would the one failure be messing anything up? The PLM link database still has the bad Insteon ID in there, but also with the correct two.

Please let me know if there are any other troubleshooting steps I can try, or logs I can provide.

Thanks!

[nfrobertson]

Ok let's check some basics first.

You are running HS3 correct? Plugin does seem to work with HS4, what very limited testing I've done, but that's legacy mode and HS4 is a whole new set of variables.

You are using Mark Sandler's Insteon plugin correct? Not the free HST Insteon plugin.

I assume you've looked through the basic help included with the plugin for background info PLUGINS->Insteon Thermostat->Insteon Thermostat Help

Have you turned on Debug logging? PLUGINS->Insteon Thermostat->Insteon Thermostat Config->General TAB be sure to hit SAVE if you make changes

Once debug logging is on, you should be able to see a lot in the online Log. Honestly I prefer to review the debug log on disk at C:\Program Files (x86)\HomeSeer HS3\Logs\InsteonThermostatDebug.log that way I don't to play with filtering or messages from other plugins except this one. If you don't have access to the disk that's ok as all those messages are in the HS3 online Log. You may just have to play with it to get it in a nice readable and filtered format.

I attached a sample from my test systems InsteonThermostatDebug.log file showing s startup yesterday and then several updates where i was playing with the set points. The 2nd start up is pretty vanilla but at the end it does show the external temp sensor of my "wireless" 2441ZTH changed value and was reported.

I also attached a sample from my test systems HS3 online log showing the debug logging when the plugin starts up.

[mrceolla]

Yes, HS3 with Mark's plugin. Both plugins at version 3.0.7.1. I could see activity for temp, humidity, and setpoint changes in your logs, but nothing else. How does this PI know heat or ac is running?

I enabled debug logging and Raw Insteon data. I can get my Dad to email me that file, but are there particular steps you'd like me to take before obtaining that file?

Note, my main concern right now is the PI not seeming to know when the Heat is running. I haven't bothered to test local changes to the setpoints or modes. I don't think any of that has changed since adding to the PI.

As a preview, here is a snippet from the online log after polling both thermostats. It seems to only be polling Temp and Humidity, but I'm not sure what I should be seeing:

Dec-22 8:59:50 PM Insteon Thermostat Lower TStat Humidity = 44
Dec-22 8:59:50 PM Insteon Thermostat InsteonRcv [TID:3 20:59:50.316] RAW = 01 52 66 B9 41 EE 6F 05 6F 2C
Dec-22 8:56:26 PM Insteon Thermostat InsteonRcv [TID:3 20:56:26.993] RAW = 01 52 CA A7 41 EE 6F 2F 6A 8C
Dec-22 8:56:26 PM Insteon Thermostat InsteonRcv [TID:3 20:56:26.983] RAW = ACK 6A 20 01 52 CA A7 41 EE 6F 2F 6A 8C
Dec-22 8:56:26 PM Insteon Thermostat Upper Thermostat Temp = 72
Dec-22 8:56:26 PM Insteon Thermostat InsteonRcv [TID:3 20:56:26.288] RAW = ACK 6B 03 01 52 CA A7 41 EE 6F 2F 6B 8F
Dec-22 8:56:26 PM Insteon Thermostat InsteonRcv [TID:3 20:56:26.278] RAW = 01 52 CA A7 41 EE 6F 2F 6B 8F
Dec-22 8:56:25 PM Insteon Thermostat Upper Thermostat Humidity = 44
Dec-22 8:56:25 PM Insteon Thermostat InsteonRcv [TID:3 20:56:25.568] RAW = ACK 6A 60 01 52 CA A7 41 EE 6F 2F 6A 2C
Dec-22 8:56:25 PM Insteon Thermostat InsteonRcv [TID:3 20:56:25.558] RAW = 01 52 CA A7 41 EE 6F 2F 6A 2C
Dec-22 8:56:25 PM Insteon Thermostat InsteonRcv [TID:3 20:56:25.043] RAW = ACK 6B 02 01 52 CA A7 41 EE 6F 2F 6B 01
Dec-22 8:56:25 PM Insteon Thermostat InsteonRcv [TID:3 20:56:25.033] RAW = 01 52 CA A7 41 EE 6F 2F 6B 01
Dec-22 8:56:23 PM Insteon Thermostat TransmitInsteon: [Upper Thermostat] [0F] [6A] [20]
Dec-22 8:56:21 PM Insteon Thermostat TransmitInsteon: [Upper Thermostat] [0F] [6B] [03]
Dec-22 8:56:19 PM Insteon Thermostat TransmitInsteon: [Upper Thermostat] [0F] [6A] [60]
Dec-22 8:56:17 PM Insteon Thermostat TransmitInsteon: [Upper Thermostat] [0F] [6B] [02]
Dec-22 8:56:17 PM Insteon Thermostat POLL thermostat: Upper Thermostat
Dec-22 8:56:13 PM Insteon Thermostat InsteonRcv [TID:3 20:56:13.283] RAW = 01 52 66 B9 41 EE 6F 2F 6A 8C
Dec-22 8:56:13 PM Insteon Thermostat InsteonRcv [TID:3 20:56:13.273] RAW = ACK 6A 20 01 52 66 B9 41 EE 6F 2F 6A 8C
Dec-22 8:56:12 PM Insteon Thermostat Lower TStat Temp = 71
Dec-22 8:56:12 PM Insteon Thermostat InsteonRcv [TID:3 20:56:12.578] RAW = ACK 6B 03 01 52 66 B9 41 EE 6F 2F 6B 8E
Dec-22 8:56:12 PM Insteon Thermostat InsteonRcv [TID:3 20:56:12.568] RAW = 01 52 66 B9 41 EE 6F 2F 6B 8E
Dec-22 8:56:12 PM Insteon Thermostat InsteonRcv [TID:3 20:56:12.073] RAW = 01 52 66 B9 41 EE 6F 2F 6A 2E
Dec-22 8:56:12 PM Insteon Thermostat Lower TStat Humidity = 46
Dec-22 8:56:12 PM Insteon Thermostat InsteonRcv [TID:3 20:56:12.053] RAW = ACK 6A 60 01 52 66 B9 41 EE 6F 2F 6A 2E
Dec-22 8:56:12 PM Insteon Thermostat InsteonRcv [TID:3 20:56:12.043] RAW = 01 52 66 B9 41 EE 6F 2F 6B 01
Dec-22 8:56:12 PM Insteon Thermostat InsteonRcv [TID:3 20:56:12.033] RAW = ACK 6B 02 01 52 66 B9 41 EE 6F 2F 6B 01
Dec-22 8:56:10 PM Insteon Thermostat TransmitInsteon: [Lower TStat] [0F] [6A] [20]
Dec-22 8:56:08 PM Insteon Thermostat TransmitInsteon: [Lower TStat] [0F] [6B] [03]
Dec-22 8:56:06 PM Insteon Thermostat TransmitInsteon: [Lower TStat] [0F] [6A] [60]
Dec-22 8:56:04 PM Insteon Thermostat TransmitInsteon: [Lower TStat] [0F] [6B] [02]
Dec-22 8:56:04 PM Insteon Thermostat POLL thermostat: Lower TStat

[nfrobertson]

There are reporting links established from the 2441TH thermostat to the hub so that as changes happen in the thermostat a message is sent to the hub and since we've registered interest in those messages via the plugin, it receives them. This part is a one time setup. If it failed during the initial install you can experience issues like you've reported.

In general operation you should be doing no polling. That is usually only used when there is flaky communication between the thermostat and the hub. I've been saying hub but you mention PLM above and that should work just fine too. I had two PLMs (both eventually died) before switching to the hub.

On the config page is a "Read Links" option. Below is what my Venstar T1800 with the 2441V adaptor shows as links. Note this is the same 6 links reported two different ways, as Insteon hex values and then as interpreted by the plugin. I added the <- comments in the upper set to hopefully help clarify.

Dec-23 7:06:20 AM Insteon Thermostat VenstarT1800: LINK : A2 EF 14 82 9B 00 00 00 <- required link for 2441TH
Dec-23 7:06:20 AM Insteon Thermostat VenstarT1800: LINK : E2 04 14 82 9B 00 00 00 <- Humidity reporting for 2441TH
Dec-23 7:06:20 AM Insteon Thermostat VenstarT1800: LINK : E2 03 14 82 9B 00 00 00 <- HVAC Fan Report Link PRESENT
Dec-23 7:06:20 AM Insteon Thermostat VenstarT1800: LINK : E2 02 14 82 9B 00 00 00 <- HVAC Cool Report Link PRESENT
Dec-23 7:06:20 AM Insteon Thermostat VenstarT1800: LINK : E2 01 14 82 9B 00 00 00 <- HVAC Heat Report Link PRESENT
Dec-23 7:06:20 AM Insteon Thermostat VenstarT1800: LINK : E2 EF 14 82 9B 00 00 00 <- Thermostat Settings Report Link PRESENT

Dec-23 7:06:20 AM Insteon Thermostat VenstarT1800 Other Thermostat Link : A2 EF 14 82 9B 00 00 00
Dec-23 7:06:20 AM Insteon Thermostat VenstarT1800 Other Thermostat Link : E2 04 14 82 9B 00 00 00
Dec-23 7:06:20 AM Insteon Thermostat VenstarT1800 HVAC Fan Report Link PRESENT
Dec-23 7:06:18 AM Insteon Thermostat VenstarT1800 HVAC Cool Report Link PRESENT
Dec-23 7:06:18 AM Insteon Thermostat VenstarT1800 HVAC Heat Report Link PRESENT
Dec-23 7:06:18 AM Insteon Thermostat VenstarT1800 Thermostat Settings Report Link PRESENT

Dec-23 7:06:16 AM Insteon Thermostat TransmitInsteon: [VenstarT1800] [1F] [2F] [00] ((([00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00])))
Dec-23 7:06:16 AM Insteon Thermostat Reading links from theremostat: VenstarT1800

A few minutes after the logs above, my Venstar/2441V thermostat called for heat and here's the logs for that enabled by the "Heart Report" link from the list above

Dec-23 7:11:57 AM Insteon Thermostat RheemHVAC switching from Off to Heat
Dec-23 7:11:57 AM Insteon Thermostat VenstarT1800 calling for HEAT

My guess is you are missing one or more of the links in the thermostat. The config page Write Links option exists to try and fix that after initial setup. So I suggest you do read links, give it a couple minutes and see what comes back. Make sure you have all 6 links. Also suggest doing this one thermostat at a time.

[nfrobertson]

I'm curious where your dad picked up a couple Insteon thermostats? Doing a lot of research this morning and seems smarthome has removed all insteon thermostat support from their latest mobile app solution. People have had issues getting new/replacement insteon thermostats (2441TH, 2441ZTH, heat pump etc.) for the last couple years it seems. I'm wondering if either of these thermostats might be refurbished units and if that could have any bearing on the issues you've been facing? The thermostat protocol used here hasn't changed in years.

[JimSpy]

I'm curious where your dad picked up a couple Insteon thermostats? Doing a lot of research this morning and seems smarthome has removed all insteon thermostat support from their latest mobile app solution. People have had issues getting new/replacement insteon thermostats (2441TH, 2441ZTH, heat pump etc.) for the last couple years it seems. I'm wondering if either of these thermostats might be refurbished units and if that could have any bearing on the issues you've been facing? The thermostat protocol used here hasn't changed in years.

Yet another INSTEON device deleted from the catalog...at a time when every other SmartHome manufacturer is expanding their product line.

What on earth is going on over there?

[mrceolla]

First, I believe he purchased them 6+ months ago. They must have been liquidating.

Thank you for that info and apologies for the delay. Holidays got in the way.

At least one of the thermostats, the lower level which usually is the one to call for heat, is reporting On and Off requests, so that's great! That is the one I did "Update Links" for on 12/21/2020. It must not have actually called for Heat until after my most recent post on 12/22. I think part of my confusion is that I expected to see info for all sub-devices when polling but I was only seeing Temp/Humidity. Does that mean the other info is not pollable? If the initial message sent by the TStat is missed by HS, polling won't correct it?

I did a Read Links on the lower thermostat, which seems to be reporting correctly, and it matched your example log snippets. I then did a Read Links on the other thermostat and that did not look the same. I then did "Update Links" on that one, followed by a Read Links, and now it too shows the correct links.

It would seem both of them failed initial setup, but I'm not sure why as their Insteon network seems solid. I guess that part doesn't matter to me now, but curious about the polling question above. Also curious if I can link 2 TStats to a single HVAC device within this PI without any issues. I had created a dummy HVAC device for troubleshooting purposes but just now reassigned both TStats to the real HVAC device. Hoping that is a supported configuration.

Thanks so much!

[nfrobertson]

The HVAC device in the plugin is a logical concept only. When an attached TSTAT calls for heat or cool it starts the timer and when they call to stop heat or cool stops the timer and increments the heat or cooler counter device so that you have an indication of how long heating or cooling has run. The idea is to know when to change filters etc. I don't recall your father's setup, does he have 2 TSTATS connected to a single furnace/AC? Or perhaps upper floor / lower floor furnace/AC units? Wonder if it would make more sense to have separate logical HVAC devices for both or if he'll even use the HVAC device in HS for this purpose? They aren't required.

I think part of my confusion is that I expected to see info for all sub-devices when polling but I was only seeing Temp/Humidity.

As for polling, commands are issued to the thermostat to have it report back current status. Below is an example I just ran to my Venstar 1700 that has the 2441V adaptor attached. Notice that it only reported current temp and humidity, not the setpoints.

Jan-04 7:16:33 PM Insteon Thermostat VenstarT1800 Temp = 67
Jan-04 7:16:32 PM Insteon Thermostat VenstarT1800 Humidity = 23
Jan-04 7:16:30 PM Insteon Thermostat TransmitInsteon: [VenstarT1800] [0F] [6A] [20]
Jan-04 7:16:28 PM Insteon Thermostat TransmitInsteon: [VenstarT1800] [0F] [6B] [03]
Jan-04 7:16:26 PM Insteon Thermostat TransmitInsteon: [VenstarT1800] [0F] [6A] [60]
Jan-04 7:16:24 PM Insteon Thermostat TransmitInsteon: [VenstarT1800] [0F] [6B] [02]
Jan-04 7:16:24 PM Insteon Thermostat POLL thermostat: VenstarT1800
Jan-04 7:16:23 PM Device Control Device: Main Living Room thermostat to Polling (255) by/from: CAPI Control Handler

Here's a poll to a wireless 2441ZTH I have in my garage. You can see the poll command is different for the wireless and the results are a little more but not much. Again no setpoints reported. I mainly use this to watch the external temp sensor which is inside the freezer but that hasn't changed in a LONG time since it has to change +/- 2 degrees. Also didn't get reported on the poll.

Jan-04 7:20:38 PM Insteon Thermostat FREEZER Battery level = 4
Jan-04 7:20:38 PM Insteon Thermostat FREEZER Mode = Off
Jan-04 7:20:38 PM Insteon Thermostat FREEZER Humidity = 20
Jan-04 7:20:38 PM Insteon Thermostat FREEZER Temp = 68
Jan-04 7:20:38 PM Insteon Thermostat Using Temp Format = Fahrenheit
Jan-04 7:20:38 PM Insteon Thermostat Thermostat reports: Temp Format = Fahrenheit
Jan-04 7:20:38 PM Insteon Thermostat Thermostat reports: Button Beep DISABLED
Jan-04 7:20:35 PM Insteon Thermostat TransmitInsteon: [FREEZER] [1F] [2E] [00] ((([00] [00] [09] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00])))
Jan-04 7:20:32 PM Insteon Thermostat TransmitInsteon: [FREEZER] [1F] [2E] [00] ((([00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00])))
Jan-04 7:20:32 PM Insteon Thermostat POLL thermostat: FREEZER
Jan-04 7:20:32 PM Device Control Device: Garage Thermostats FREEZER to Polling (255) by/from: CAPI Control Handler

Last, my Venstar 1700 w/2441V just kicked into heating mode and this is in the log showing the heat counter has started for that HVAC unit.

Jan-04 7:22:06 PM Insteon Thermostat RheemHVAC switching from Off to Heat
Jan-04 7:22:06 PM Insteon Thermostat VenstarT1800 calling for HEAT

[mrceolla]

Thank you again. Very helpful information. It appears both TStats are now setup correctly, and working as expected.

I'm pretty sure they have just one furnace/AC combo that services both floors and to their knowledge there are no automatic flappers (forgot what they're called) to control air flow other than manually at the vents. So yes, 2 tstats but only one unit. I've seen the unit but haven't checked for flappers. Either way, I don't think zone control on a single unit matters in this case.

I setup the virtual HVAC devices in the PI because I thought that might be the only way to know when the heat is running, because the thermostats were never reporting when the heat was actually running. Turns out it was that link issue. I have yet to catch the thermostat devices while heat or AC is running. Can you tell me what to expect at the sub-device level? I've seen the logs you mention indicating calling for Heat and switching from Off to Heat in my Dad's logs, but does a thermostat sub-device update and can I create events on that change? Are the HVAC devices solely for tracking runtime?

So, are you saying attaching both Tstats to 1 HVAC device in the PI will work just fine? If so, I think that would be the preferred setup so if I need/want to create events based on whether or not heat or ac is running, I only have to check one place. At least that's my thinking anyway. Open to other solutions to know when heat/ac is running.

[nfrobertson]

Sorry, missed you had a follow up question. I think the 2 TSTATS to the one HVAC should work. with DEBUG logging you'll see messages about the HVAC virtual device changing state.

If you look under the PLUG-INS->Insteon_Thermostat->Insteon_Thermostat_Status you should see both thermostats and the virtual HVAC device so you can tell how it's behaving.

Another place to look is under the main HOME devices list. Check the filters if you can't see devices with HVAC in the name. there should be HVAC mode, fan, cool, heat and maintenance devices.