Contrary to the claims, X10 and UPB are NOT compatible!

[DC]

This morning I noticed several landscape lights still on that should have gone off at 1:00 AM. That has always happened occasionally (which is why I'm even looking at UPB) but I just always turn them off manually (through HS). Today they would NOT go off despite sending several OFF commands. I turned off the breaker on which I have my UPB phase coupler connected, and the X10 devices responded immediately. Turn the UPB coupler back on and the X10 devices will not respond at all.

So, that proves conclusively, to me at least, that X10 and UPB will not peacefully co-exist in the same installation!

It also makes me wonder if my problem with UPB is that I've got quite a few X10 devices and filters throughout the house. I have tried turning off my X10 coupler/repeater and that didn't help my UPB signal problem but I'm wondering now if all my other X10 stuff is interfering with UPB. It would be quite a chore to remove all the X10 stuff just to see if that fixes the problem.

[Rupp]

Flooded power lines sounds like the culprit. Flooded with what is the question. If you add noise + X10 signals + UPB signals + other normal "junk" you have a lot on the power lines. UPB is good but it can't be any better than the medium in parasites off of and the protocol that it users. Many of us are blessed to have noise free power lines others are not. This was the driving force behind Z-Wave. Take the biggest problem "source" out of the equation- the power lines. I'm now up to 22 Z-Wave nodes and it seems the more I add the better it gets but then again I still have 37 X10 nodes and I have no problems there either. I have never bought a filter or used one and I have 1 large UPS that I have 3 X10 appliance modules plugged into and can control those as well. One difference is I do not have a detached building nor a light several hundred feet from the house so these scenarios are moot for me. I do have a walk light that is at the end of the side walk and it has never failed. Good luck finding the sources of the noise. The way others have located it in the past is by turning off breakers one by one and checking the communications. It's gruesome but sometimes necessary.

[DC]

Unless my UPB phase coupler is "flooding" the powerline, that's not the culprit. All I did is turn off one breaker to which that coupler is attached (there is no load on that breaker, just the coupler) and X10 started working again. So, it's not noise on my powerlines -- it's the phase coupler. It's as if the UPB coupler is acting as an X10 filter. Which makes me wonder if my X10 filters and other devices act as a UPB filter.

This statement is on the the Simply Automated web site (the red is my highlighting):

UPB communication can be used in the presence of all X-10, CEBus, or LonWorks compatible equipment with no interference between either UPB equipment or X-10, CEBus, or LonWorks equipment. The UPB technology uses a completely different frequency range than any of the wide-band, narrow-band, or spread spectrum technologies. The physical method of UPB communication is entirely different than the modulation-demodulation techniques of all X-10, CEBus, or LonWorks.

I realize that statement doesn't explicitely say that UPB won't interefere with X10 but it seems to imply that it won't. UPB clearly does interefere with X10 so it seems logical to me that the reverse could be true also -- which could help explain my problems with UPB.

[Oman]

There are a number of different X10 couplers and repeaters. As far as I know there are only two UPB couplers.

Is it possible that you have both a coupler between two phases and a separate X10 repeater?

It is also possible that the coupler is actually biulding a stronger bond between the phases and the lights that are now not working on on the same phase as the X10 PIM and thus getting a weaker signal.

This is just not much fun for you I'm sure.

Unless my UPB phase coupler is "flooding" the powerline, that's not the culprit. All I did is turn off one breaker to which that coupler is attached (there is no load on that breaker, just the coupler) and X10 started working again. So, it's not noise on my powerlines -- it's the phase coupler. It's as if the UPB coupler is acting as an X10 filter. Which makes me wonder if my X10 filters and other devices act as a UPB filter.

This statement is on the the Simply Automated web site (the red is my highlighting):

I realize that statement doesn't explicitely say that UPB won't interefere with X10 but it seems to imply that it won't. UPB clearly does interefere with X10 so it seems logical to me that the reverse could be true also -- which could help explain my problems with UPB.

[Gogs]

Unless my UPB phase coupler is "flooding" the powerline, that's not the culprit. All I did is turn off one breaker to which that coupler is attached (there is no load on that breaker, just the coupler) and X10 started working again. So, it's not noise on my powerlines -- it's the phase coupler. It's as if the UPB coupler is acting as an X10 filter. Which makes me wonder if my X10 filters and other devices act as a UPB filter.

This statement is on the the Simply Automated web site (the red is my highlighting):



I realize that statement doesn't explicitely say that UPB won't interefere with X10 but it seems to imply that it won't. UPB clearly does interefere with X10 so it seems logical to me that the reverse could be true also -- which could help explain my problems with UPB.

OK, a statment. In the UK we do not have the situation of having to use couplers. Therefore what I am about to say might be complete garbage.

I have found that not all X10 products are compatible with each other. For example a Black & Decker X10 sensor is no more use with HS than a wet cat, and will bring HS to a halt.

Could it be you have a rouge which is creating a lot of noise?

[Michael McSharry]

My experiences and all that I read about Simply Automated is that they are very interested in supporting their customers. The types of problemss that are abeing experienced with poor visibility and interference should be brought directly to their attention. Give them a chance to deal with it. There is only so much that can be evaluated in the factory and real world feedback is necessary to improve design shortcomings.

[DC]

Michael, I have already called them and you are correct -- they do seem interested in working with me to isolate the problem.

I told them yesterday that when I unplug my two APC UPSs that are in the same room as the PIM (but on a different circuit) that the UPB signal gets significantly stronger -- so much so that UPStart can then communicate with a module that it can't communicate with when the UPS is plugged in. They wanted to know what model UPS I have so they can get one and do some testing. They were surprised that a UPS not even on the same circuit would degrade the UPB signal but I assured them that it was very easy for me to demonstrate. One awesome feature of UPB and UPStart is the built-in communication test / signal strength capability.

[Oman]

Call Powerline Control Systems as well. They are the inventors/licensors of UPB. They have an UPStart build with additional testing abilities as well as some special devices.

http://www.pcslighting.com/

The SA PIM is 100% based off of the PCS reference design, including the firmware which id's the PIM as being a PCS one.

Michael, I have already called them and you are correct -- they do seem interested in working with me to isolate the problem.

I told them yesterday that when I unplug my two APC UPSs that are in the same room as the PIM (but on a different circuit) that the UPB signal gets significantly stronger -- so much so that UPStart can then communicate with a module that it can't communicate with when the UPS is plugged in. They wanted to know what model UPS I have so they can get one and do some testing. They were surprised that a UPS not even on the same circuit would degrade the UPB signal but I assured them that it was very easy for me to demonstrate. One awesome feature of UPB and UPStart is the built-in communication test / signal strength capability.

[JKaplan]

Don't be too quick to jump to conclusions

DC -

As I've noted elsewhere, you and I are in very similar situations.

But I must point out a possible weakness in your debugging logic. Even though unplugging the UPB coupler restored the X10 functions, it is not necessarily correct that the UPB coupler is the cause.

The problem for both of us may have more to do with Rupp's comment that the power line is 'flooded' - i.e. it is teetering on the edge of (communications) collapse. Changes to the configuration or the addition of one more piece of equipment can destablize things to the point that nothing works.

I've found it useful to be very cautious about concluding that one or another item does or does not work.

Example: If I plug both my X10 and UPB PIMS into the same outlet, the UPB PIM fails. Separate outlets, everything is fine. Both item work, and in some sense are compatible, but the combination in one configuration is deadly.

I'll do some more testing and post results as I get them.

Jerry

[DC]

JKaplan, I understand what you are saying but I'm virtually certain the UPB coupler is interfering with X10 signals. It's on a circuit breaker so I can easily remove it from the picture by just flipping the breaker off. With the breaker on (the coupler in play) I cannot control X10 devices in my shop (which is a little iffy anyway). When I turn the UPB coupler off, I can control the devices. Turn the coupler back on, no X10 control. Turn it off, X10 works. I did this cycle many times and it was 100% consistent and repeatable.


I know what you are saying about flooding the powerlines but when I was doing this test, there was ZERO UPB traffic on the line (unless the PIM puts traffic on the line all by itself). I don't even have any events set up for UPB devices yet so, unless I manually click ON or OFF on a UPB device, HS will not try to control it. So, unless UPB lamp modules or the PIM is continuously putting traffic on the line (which I doubt), there should have been no UPB traffic while I was doing this test.

So, unless it's an enormous coincidence that the second I turned the UPB coupler off, whatever was flooding the powerline also shut off, and did this multiple times, there absolutely WAS a cause-and-effect relationship between the coupler being on and X10 not working.

[Tcassio]

Did you just install the UPB coupler, or has it been install for a while?

[DC]

Just installed it two days ago and started having more problems than normal with X10 immediately.