Update on my UPB problems

[DC]

I have found that wall switches apparently work much better than plug-in modules. I have a lamp module in a bedroom that shows an average signal strength of 10. A wall switch in the same room (on the same circuit) has an average signal strength of 36.

I added a 2nd phase coupler in my upstairs panel and the devices upstairs work much better now. So two couplers in the system are definitely better than one. I am going to add a third coupler to another panel tomorrow.

A Simply-Automated wired-in phase coupling capacitor (model SPU25X126AQSA) DEFINITELY interferes with X10 signals. I am going to replace it with a SA model ZPC-W coupler and see if that eliminates the X10 interference. If I can eliminate my X10 interference, I think I will continue on with UPB. Otherwise, I don't see how I can.

[Rupp]

Where and how are you getting these "parts" so fast? Do you have a local provider of these parts that you keep adding like the couplers?

[DC]

www.automatedoutlet.com

[JKaplan]

Update on parallel problem to DC

DC -

As you may know, I have similar problems in a similar setup.

I had NO communication between main house and garage building.

This morning, I turned off the 'whole house' surge supressor, and an X-10 coupler/repeater installed in the main panel.

Now I get some life, but not reliable communications between the two structures. (Parity errors.) If EITHER of these devices is on, I get no signal, so I think this is a question of too much stuff interfering with the transmission or reducing the signal strength.

This parallels your experience.

I will install a UPB bridge directly in the main panel and see what happens.

It occurs to me that UPB signals are supposed to go long distances, but most likely you and I have a mile or more of wiring on the house. (Figure 100 circuits an average of 50 FT = approximately a mile).

So, the issue may be that UPB signals can indeed travel a mile, but the signal is degraded when it is 'broadcast' over long lengths of wire in parallel. In other words, UPB performance may be limited by some combination of the distance between the PIM and the device, and the total amount of wire that the signal is broadcast through. This is analogous to an RF antenna that directs it energy directionally, vs. one that spreads its energy 360 degrees.

FYI, I'm also working with Automated Outlet, and it takes over a week (UPS ground) to get things here. How are you getting your stuff so fast?

Jerry

[JKaplan]

Update on issues

I just performed a number of tests, and determined the following:

1. If all switches are on the same phase, regardless of location or number of 'panels' the wires are routed through, I have no problems at all.

2. I relocated my phase coupler to the main panel. This had no effect. It is almost as though this coupler (SA, in-panel type) is defective.

Thus, I've concluded that the problem (at least for me) is phase coupling. Martin at Automated Outlet, who is very helpful BTW, is getting in some PCS couplers next week and will send me one for testing.

Jerry

[AutomatedOutlet]

OK,

I just had a very interesting conversation with PCS.

From the issue that at least Jerry is describing, this could possibly be a whole different thing.

Jerry, I know you have a bunch of feeds and at least 2 buildings, is it possible that you actually have a 3 phase power feed from the electric company? That would explain a lot and would give us a plan of attack.

[DC]

My house indeed has much more than a mile of wire in it. We used several (probably 10 to 12) 1000' rolls of wire when we were building it. But, if that is the problem then I would consider the claim that UPB signals can travel "up to a mile" to be quite misleading. If the total amount of wire in a house is the limiting factor, rather than the distance the signal has to travel from the PIM to the device, then UPB isn't suitable at all for large houses or commercial applications. Most large houses would have a mile or more of wire.

I have also found that I get a very strong signal on the same phase and very weak (if any) on the opposite phase. I currently have three phase couplers installed in different boxes. I talked to PCS this morning and they said multiple phase couplers will not do any more than one. I assured her that I could prove conclusively that is not true. I can turn the coupler in my upstairs panel off and can't communicate at all with two of the four devices (the two on the "opposite" phase). Turn it on, and I can communicate with all four devices. It's 100% consistent and repeatable.

PCS also was surprised (and skeptical) that UPB couplers interfere with X10 but I can prove that is true also. I have minimized that problem by not putting my X10 coupler/repeater in the same panel with the UPB. PCS told me I should be able to put them both on the same breaker but that's simply not the case.

PCS also told me that they are confident that if I were using PCS stuff (instead of Simply Automated) that I wouldn't be having these problems. Her comment was "all UPB devices are not created equal" I know every vendor is going to say that about their stuff so I'm taking a wait and see attitude about it. However, I have ordered some PCS modules, switches and PIM so I will give it a try. If it works better, then I'll be a PCS user instead of SA. Martin also told me that PCS warranties their stuff for 5 years vs 2 for SA so I'll use PCS even if it just works the same.

I'm getting my stuff quickly because I'm impatient so I'm having it shipped overnight. But, Automated Outlet didn't have the PCS modules in stock so that's going to take a week or so.

And, I completely agree about Martin and Automated Outlet. He is being very helpful to me as well. He has my business from now on.

[JKaplan]

Phases of the moon...

Martin -

It's conceivable that I've got more than 2 phases, but I don't think so. If there's some test I can perform, please let me know. It certainly would explain everything.

I opened up my main breaker panel today. It's the size of 2 refrigerators because it handles 600 Amps. (Don't ask me why I need this much - perhaps my electrician thought I might want to start an indoor pot farm someday. FYI, I just found out he's now out of business.)

It looks to my civilian eye as though there are two phases. Two large metal bars decend into a larger version of the usual breaker panel, which contains elephantine breakers for 4 sub-panels (I discovered one I didn't know I had, for the pool.)

I was able to fit the SA phase coupler into the panel. It's across two phases with a white lead connected to the neutral block as well. It lights up with three green lights, but I notice that it doesn't flash or anything when signals are supposed to pass through it. So, perhaps, I'm wrong about this, and there are more than 2 phases, and I've got the coupler across the 2 phases that do not include the phase that the PIM is on.

Any advice appreciated,

Jerry

[AutomatedOutlet]

Well, I'm not an electrician so hopefully someone else can tell you how to tell by looking at your panel. Here is some interesting stuff I found out though.

If you do have a 3 phase system, a couple of new things apply.

1) A passive phase coupler will not do any good even if you use more of them. I guess it has something to do with the if you have 3 phases, the signals are 120 degrees apart instead of 180.

2) If this is the case, PCS does make a 3 phase coupler/repeater (yes, it repeats too).

It's not cheap but it is meant for commercial applications.

Any way you or DC can figure out if you have a 3 phase system?

[dschoppe]

Some good info here may help you regarding 3-phase versus single phase power:

http://www.answers.com/topic/three-p...ee_phase_loads

Enjoy,
Don

[DC]

It's extremely rare for residences to have 3-phase wiring -- almost non-existent. It's intended for commercial and industrial users who have huge power requirements. Most residential neighborhoods aren't even wired for 3-phase. Very large motors run more efficiently on 3-phase. Some hobby woodworkers buy 3-phase power equipment but, if they are using it in a residential neighborhood, they have to buy (or build) a 3-phase converter. Some large apartment complexes have 3-phase. You almost certainly have "split-phase" wiring.

Look in your electrical panel. You should see two hot wires each feeding one bus. You will also have a neutral wire. If you measure 240V between the two hots and 120V between each hot and neutral, you have 120/240V split-phase.

[Oman]

If you *do* happen to have three-phase then you can't get X10 or UPB data on all three phases without a special repeater. With 2-phase or split-phase the zero-crossing point is at the exact same time with both phases. This is not the case with three-phase.

It's extremely rare for residences to have 3-phase wiring -- almost non-existent. It's intended for commercial and industrial users who have huge power requirements. Most residential neighborhoods aren't even wired for 3-phase. Very large motors run more efficiently on 3-phase. Some hobby woodworkers buy 3-phase power equipment but, if they are using it in a residential neighborhood, they have to buy (or build) a 3-phase converter. Some large apartment complexes have 3-phase. You almost certainly have "split-phase" wiring.

Look in your electrical panel. You should see two hot wires each feeding one bus. You will also have a neutral wire. If you measure 240V between the two hots and 120V between each hot and neutral, you have 120/240V split-phase.

[MRTaylor]

JKaplan,

I say this out of concern, so please take it this way: if you do not know if you have a split phase system, then please don't do any wiring. Please hire an electrician.

Michael

[JKaplan]

Phases

Michael -

I take your caution seriously. I opened up my 600AMP panel yesterday, and until I could verify absolutely that the power was off, I wouldn't go anywhere near the horrors that I saw. I verified it three ways: 1. I actually had a Pacific Gas and Electric representative here, who showed me how to operate the main braker (you need Herculean strength to move it). 2. All activity on the meter ceased. 3. My Voltage meter could find no voltage across anything remotely metallic in the panel.

However, as a precaution, I don't want to go testing voltages in the panel when it is active.

That said, I'm 99% confident that the power is split 2-phase. The panel is organized in the usual symmetrical fashion; it supplies a series of subpanels through tandem breakers; I see no 'blue' wire as per the discussion on "answers.com". There are two large Black and Red wires attached to the center of the panel , and a white neutral attached to a connection block at the side. No electrician has ever suggested that I have 3-phase power. I recall at my previous residence that the power company was amazed when I had to order 3-phase power to operate an ancient Otis Elevator that had been out of service for several decades (FYI, I did manage to renovate it and get it going - a thing of beauty). Lastly, I have an X-10 coupler/repeater that is wired in to the main panel in precisely the same fashion and works fine.

I'd be happy to test the phases if someone can advise me on how to do this (safely).

My SA UPB coupler is the 'in panel' type that fits in like a tandem breaker, and all three lights are on.

From the documentation for the coupler: "LED INDICATORS - Phase coupling and surge suppression are active when all 3 LEDs are illuminated. An extinguished LINE A or LINE B LED indicates an improper Line connection, or the internal phase coupling circuitry is not
working. An extinguished SURGE LED indicates an improper Neutral connection, or the internal surge suppression circuitry is not working."

Since communication is perfect when the PIM and the switch are on the same phase while passing through the main panel, and communication is virtually non-existent when on different phases, it seems to me most likely that the coupler isn't doing its job.

SO, my current top hypothesis (which I suspect also applies to DC) is that the SA couplers simply aren't working correctly. It shouldn't be necessary to make multiple phase couplings in multiple subpanels - either the phases are coupled or they aren't!

Jerry

[MRTaylor]

Well, it certainly sounds like your coupler is not functioning. I used a wire in coupler (SA) and it works in my installation.

Kudos for having power company at your location when investigating!

I think Oman might be your resource to get assistance from PCS. From what I can tell, PCS is *committed* to getting UPB working reliably (I've had some converations with their tech support on other issues).

Michael