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    #16
    Low voltage in the electrical world is less than 600 Volts.

    Legally (code wise) you can run 12VDC and 120 VAC in the same conduit as long as the wires / jackets are rated at 300 Volts.

    I do not do this with my low voltage (alarm, 12VDC wires - DC wires) and AC voltage 120VAC wires. I did though run 16/4 cabling for speakers near some AC conduit with no ill effects (no noise on speakers).

    Today I do run LV (for alarm, 12VDC, speaker wire) along outside of metal electrical conduit in the basement in certain areas. Never have had a problem with this.

    IE: thermostat wall has a 120VAC switch in the same cavity (16"). In the wall is the doorbell wires, conduit for switch an conduit for thermostat. I ran the LV thermostat wires in the same conduit as the thermostat to HVAC unit with no issues and a POE cat5e cable in the same cavity.

    All of my GDO LV wires are / were just tacked to the wall and ceiling.

    IE: beam sensors to GDO and GDO to wall button plus my 22/4 and 22/2 or CatXX to GDO and door sensors. I did neaten up the look of the two remote buttons burying the control wires in drywall for finishing the wall (well just to look neat - garage is drywalled) and went to using plastic conduit on the sides of the garage doors because I ran two sets of LV switches (for doors) and I didn't want to tack my wires next to the beam sensor wires. I keep a hard wired loop in place to close the door and prevent the door from hard wire opening. The alarm panel uses the remote access buttons to open and close the door.

    IE: I put beam sensor wires, two NO switches (22/4 or 22/2 X 2) in the plastic conduit.
    - Pete

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      #17
      Originally posted by rprade View Post
      The scary thing is this was not some previous homeowner, it was built this way and presumably passed inspection. These are all tract homes, so it is safe to guess that most of the houses in this neighborhood were wired similarly.
      It would be interesting to see fire department data for that neighborhood since it was built.

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        #18
        Originally posted by rprade View Post
        I mentioned this in another thread. The original wiring (~1979) had 2 runs of 12-3 w/ground. One to the kitchen and one to the basement. For each of the 3 conductor wires they had 2 20A breakers, one for the red and one for the black. This had the potential for up to 40 amps on the single 12AWG neutral. The scary thing is this was not some previous homeowner, it was built this way and presumably passed inspection. These are all tract homes, so it is safe to guess that most of the houses in this neighborhood were wired similarly.
        That was a pretty common way of wiring split kitchen outlets and was allowed by code. The expectation was that only the unbalanced load was carried on the neutral. It is still allowed by code in many jurisdictions.

        Cheers
        Al
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          #19
          Pete, just to clarify. communication cables (phone, network, alarm, etc..) cannot be in the same conduit unless certain conditions are met, and just the insulation on the wires isn't one of them. Codes vary by location and in the end are up to the local AHJ (authority having jurisdiction). Here in Calvert county MD we follow the 2011 version of NFPA 70.

          section 70-671 states:

          Communications wires and cables in accordance
          with 800.50(A) shall be separated at least 100 mm
          (4 in.) from electric light or power conductors not in a raceway
          or cable or be permanently separated from conductors of
          the other systems by a continuous and firmly fixed nonconductor
          in addition to the insulation on the wires, such as porcelain
          tubes or flexible tubing.



          Originally posted by Pete View Post
          Low voltage in the electrical world is less than 600 Volts.

          Legally (code wise) you can run 12VDC and 120 VAC in the same conduit as long as the wires / jackets are rated at 300 Volts.

          I do not do this with my low voltage (alarm, 12VDC wires - DC wires) and AC voltage 120VAC wires. I did though run 16/4 cabling for speakers near some AC conduit with no ill effects (no noise on speakers).

          Today I do run LV (for alarm, 12VDC, speaker wire) along outside of metal electrical conduit in the basement in certain areas. Never have had a problem with this.

          IE: thermostat wall has a 120VAC switch in the same cavity (16"). In the wall is the doorbell wires, conduit for switch an conduit for thermostat. I ran the LV thermostat wires in the same conduit as the thermostat to HVAC unit with no issues and a POE cat5e cable in the same cavity.

          All of my GDO LV wires are / were just tacked to the wall and ceiling.

          IE: beam sensors to GDO and GDO to wall button plus my 22/4 and 22/2 or CatXX to GDO and door sensors. I did neaten up the look of the two remote buttons burying the control wires in drywall for finishing the wall (well just to look neat - garage is drywalled) and went to using plastic conduit on the sides of the garage doors because I ran two sets of LV switches (for doors) and I didn't want to tack my wires next to the beam sensor wires. I keep a hard wired loop in place to close the door and prevent the door from hard wire opening. The alarm panel uses the remote access buttons to open and close the door.

          IE: I put beam sensor wires, two NO switches (22/4 or 22/2 X 2) in the plastic conduit.
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            #20
            Originally posted by Pete View Post
            Low voltage in the electrical world is less than 600 Volts.
            Well, not seeking to be technical, I used the nebulous term "low voltage," which isn't even defined in the NEC. However, .....

            Originally posted by Pete View Post
            Legally (code wise) you can run 12VDC and 120 VAC in the same conduit as long as the wires / jackets are rated at 300 Volts.
            Nope. NEC Section 725-54.

            At any rate, I saw it as an unsafe condition and took what I deemed to be appropriate steps.
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              #21
              Originally posted by sparkman View Post
              That was a pretty common way of wiring split kitchen outlets and was allowed by code. The expectation was that only the unbalanced load was carried on the neutral. It is still allowed by code in many jurisdictions.

              Cheers
              Al
              I am sure it was up to code at the time and for all I know may be still. Nevertheless, in the kitchen with one leg supplying the dishwasher and another to 20A outlets that could potentially have a coffee maker and/or toaster oven, that neutral could be carrying 30+ amps of continuous load. Both of us know that a 12AWG wire could probably handle that without catastrophic failure, it still is not the way I would want it wired. It would also have to be the perfect storm of brewing coffee, making toast and the dishwasher on the drying cycle befour the neutrals limitation would be a factor. At a minimum there could be substantial voltage drop to all of the appliances.
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                #22
                Originally posted by racerfern View Post
                It would be interesting to see fire department data for that neighborhood since it was built.
                AFAIK, no problems, there. This was 'homeowner repair" either contracted out to the incompetent or made by the previous homeowner himself, who owns a repair shop and should know better.

                He had a penchant for hiring idiots. The brick patio with an underlayment of mulch. The sprinkler system with the valves buried without benefit of boxes. The HVAC system with one enormous plenum fabricated out of Insulboard and fed into what looked like a herd of Snuffleupagi babies nursing from their mother....

                Finally, I think I have fixed nearly all of his "improvements."
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                  #23
                  Originally posted by rprade View Post
                  I am sure it was up to code at the time and for all I know may be still. Nevertheless, in the kitchen with one leg supplying the dishwasher and another to 20A outlets that could potentially have a coffee maker and/or toaster oven, that neutral could be carrying 30+ amps of continuous load. Both of us know that a 12AWG wire could probably handle that without catastrophic failure, it still is not the way I would want it wired. It would also have to be the perfect storm of brewing coffee, making toast and the dishwasher on the drying cycle befour the neutrals limitation would be a factor. At a minimum there could be substantial voltage drop to all of the appliances.
                  Hi Randy, because the two legs are out of phase, the current flows will be out of phase as well. Assuming purely resistive loads, the current in the neutral for the two phases will cancel out. So if you had a coffee maker drawing 10A on one phase and a toaster drawing 6A on the other, the current on the neutral would be 4A, not 16A. Most loads won't be purely resistive so the currents won't be perfectly out of phase, but most of it will be cancelled out.

                  Cheers
                  Al
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                    #24
                    Originally posted by sparkman View Post
                    Hi Randy, because the two legs are out of phase, the current flows will be out of phase as well. Assuming purely resistive loads, the current in the neutral for the two phases will cancel out. So if you had a coffee maker drawing 10A on one phase and a toaster drawing 6A on the other, the current on the neutral would be 4A, not 16A. Most loads won't be purely resistive so the currents won't be perfectly out of phase, but most of it will be cancelled out.

                    Cheers
                    Al
                    I didnt think that through, but you are correct. They are wired to different phases - as long as someone doesn't screw up the connections in the breaker panel. I still don't like it.
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                      #25
                      Originally posted by rprade View Post
                      I didnt think that through, but you are correct. They are wired to different phases - as long as someone doesn't screw up the connections in the breaker panel. I still don't like it.
                      Most of the ones I have seen (including in my own houses) used double breakers so that guaranteed that both phases were used.

                      Cheers
                      Al
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                        #26
                        Originally posted by sparkman View Post
                        Most of the ones I have seen (including in my own houses) used double breakers so that guaranteed that both phases were used.

                        Cheers
                        Al
                        Mine doesn't, but both runs did use adjoining pairs of breakers. That still could allow some stupid head to connect the two wires to breakers on the same phase
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