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    UPB network is dead--really dead

    I do not know what is going on. My UPB network is crippled. I have 18 devices, and I am only able to communicate with one of them that is adjacent to the PIM. Most are stuck in off--but a few are stuck on, and cannot be changed either by cycling power, or pressing buttons. In the 7 years of using UPB I have never experienced such a complete failure. I have experience excessive noise from LED Christmas lights and APC UPS, both of which can be isolated with filters. This failure is a complete and utter failure of the the UPB network--no devices working. It's more than a failure of the network though. Switches are not able to control the local load anymore. They are stuck on. No amount of switching will turn off the load.

    Any idea how to go about figuring out what is going on here? Half my house is completely non-functional.

    I am really hoping that I am not looking at 18 bricked devices.
    Last edited by jlrichar; March 18, 2014, 10:47 AM.
    _______________________________________________

    HS3 : HSpro (3.0.0.460) on Win2012 (vm on ESXi)
    Plugins: HSTouch, UPBSpud, Kinect, Nest, IFTTT, DirecTV, EasyTrigger, Imperihome, Zwave, RFXcom, UltraMon3, UltraWeatherBug3, UltraGCIR3, UltraLog3, UltraPioneer, PHLocation, Pushover, Pushalot, MCSSPrinklers S, JowiHue
    Jon00 Plugins: Bluetooth Proximity, Performance Monitor, DB Chart, Links

    #2
    I have no signal from the PIM.
    Attached Files
    _______________________________________________

    HS3 : HSpro (3.0.0.460) on Win2012 (vm on ESXi)
    Plugins: HSTouch, UPBSpud, Kinect, Nest, IFTTT, DirecTV, EasyTrigger, Imperihome, Zwave, RFXcom, UltraMon3, UltraWeatherBug3, UltraGCIR3, UltraLog3, UltraPioneer, PHLocation, Pushover, Pushalot, MCSSPrinklers S, JowiHue
    Jon00 Plugins: Bluetooth Proximity, Performance Monitor, DB Chart, Links

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by jlrichar View Post
      Any idea how to go about figuring out what is going on here? Half my house is completely non-functional.
      I would start by turning most breakers off for the circuits that those 18 devices are on. There's a good chance one of those devices or an external source is causing interference. Then turn the breakers on one-by-one and see if the problem is caused by a device on one of those breakers. I don't use UPB but have seen similar issues with X-10 and Insteon.

      Cheers
      Al
      HS 4.2.8.0: 2134 Devices 1252 Events
      Z-Wave 3.0.10.0: 133 Nodes on one Z-Net

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by sparkman View Post
        I would start by turning most breakers off for the circuits that those 18 devices are on. There's a good chance one of those devices or an external source is causing interference. Then turn the breakers on one-by-one and see if the problem is caused by a device on one of those breakers. I don't use UPB but have seen similar issues with X-10 and Insteon.

        Cheers
        Al
        Thanks for the suggestion. I tried turning off each circuit and monitored noise using the upstart diagnostics at every step--there was never any signal--just varying levels of noise. I have experienced noisy signal in the past too--like I said, I fixed that with powerline filters (meant for X10--but worked well for UPB). This seems different--this is dead--not functional. With noisy signal at least I could turn on/off each device at the switch--or put it in service mode. Now even after cycling the circuit for a switch--it is frozen. It seems more like ALL my UPB stuff is fried. And this is only my UPB stuff--not z-wave, not any of my electronics like my kids wii, ps3, direcTV, all of that stuff is fine.

        Is there any way that a switch can become un-responsive to local control and not be fried?
        _______________________________________________

        HS3 : HSpro (3.0.0.460) on Win2012 (vm on ESXi)
        Plugins: HSTouch, UPBSpud, Kinect, Nest, IFTTT, DirecTV, EasyTrigger, Imperihome, Zwave, RFXcom, UltraMon3, UltraWeatherBug3, UltraGCIR3, UltraLog3, UltraPioneer, PHLocation, Pushover, Pushalot, MCSSPrinklers S, JowiHue
        Jon00 Plugins: Bluetooth Proximity, Performance Monitor, DB Chart, Links

        Comment


          #5
          It would be very odd that all 18 died at the same time with no other electronic devices dying, but not a complete impossibility. No other "fried" symptoms like a strong electronics smell?

          If you can control the nearest device, then the PIM should be working, but if there's no signal coming from the PIM, then the nearest device should also not be working. Can you confirm?

          I'm not sure on the construction of the switches you have. If they are some type of paddle/rocker that controls a micro-switch, then it could be possible that they are not fried. The only thing that comes to mind is that there's something odd with your power that causes the UPB devices not to synchronize with the AC and therefore they never send a signal. Perhaps the switches won't do local control when they are not sync'd. Kind of reaching for straws here though. Maybe take a switch and the PIM to another location (i.e. different house on a different transformer) and try them there. IF they show the same symptoms there, I would say they are done. Anyone else with thoughts on this?

          Cheers
          Al
          HS 4.2.8.0: 2134 Devices 1252 Events
          Z-Wave 3.0.10.0: 133 Nodes on one Z-Net

          Comment


            #6
            Is there any way that a switch can become un-responsive to local control and not be fried?
            I have messed with upstart; writing and rewriting and downloading configuration quickly sort of mangling the communications and local control of the UPB switches a few times in the last few years.

            So yes there is. I did have an electrical debaucle here a couple of years ago and lost most of the Insteon switches that were left in place.

            I did not lose the UPB switches I had in place on the second floor.

            That said a cold reset of the UPB switch brought it back.

            Here is the procedure.

            I would try this and also disconnect the load of the switch first using the fuse panel breaker.

            1 - On the HAI UPB™ Wall Switch that you want to reset to factory default, tap the rocker switch quickly 5 times.
            2 - The HAI UPB™ Wall Switch will flash the lighting load one time and blink its LED blue to indicate that it is ready to be reset.
            3 - Tap the rocker switch quickly 10 times to reset to factory default setting.
            4 - The HAI UPB™ Wall Switch will flash the lighting load one time and blink its LED red to indicate that it has been reset.
            5 - Tap the rocker switch once more to stop the LED from blinking.
            I do look at my UPB signals from various points in the house. I have a main HAI UPB PIM plugged into the HAI OPII panel. Next to is a serial SA PIM plugged into Homeseer #1. On the second floor I have an HAI UPB serial PIM plugged into a Quatech box (along with a Z-Troller) talking to Homeseer #2. Note that the Z-Troller works fine on the second floor......

            That and a USB UPB SA "floater" that I use to check signals in various points of the house. Signals do appear different. While sitting down for dinner sometimes we see one of the UPB switches doing odd blinks; but nothing changes relating to lighting. Recently here upgraded most of the UPB switches to multipaddle and dual load switches.

            Here it is a mix and match of various switches; IE: HAI, PCS and SA. Large load (hi wattage) switches are PCS and HAI. These have heatsinks on the side of the switches; but not that big. (IE: chandelier, kitchen cans...still all on incandescent lighting here for that stuff).

            You can also reset the PIM. Similiar to a switch. HAI PIM; similiar to rest of the PIMs. It doesn't hurt anything to reset the PIM.
            Another thing you can do is move around the PIM in your home with a laptop to see if you see the UPB switches. Here I had an issue with an inground pool being installed next door. Thinking it might have been a noisy pool pump; I didn't get noise; but rather just low signals. I initially had couplers in place; then installed a UPB repeater and that worked.

            1 - Press the Program button five (5) times quickly in a row.
            2 - The LED should start to blink green to indicate it is in Setup Mode.
            3 - Press the Program button ten (10) times quickly in a row.
            4 - The LED should start to blink red to indicate that the Factory Defaults have been set.
            5 - Press the Program button one (1) more time.
            6 - The LED should stop blinking to indicate that it is ready for normal operation.
            BTW; do you have UPB couplers or repeaters in place?

            Historically here have programmed the UPB switches in the same room with the laptop and UPB floater PIM; that is me though. I did this while upgrading the switches and had been testing HV wiring and switches one at a time; real PITA; did one room at a time.
            Last edited by Pete; March 9, 2014, 02:24 PM.
            - Pete

            Auto mator
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            Comment


              #7
              Thanks Pete and Sparkman! Your help is much appreciated.

              It looks like my phase coupler (ZPCI-P30A) is dead. When it is plugged in noise is higher than when it is unplugged--although it is possible it is just moving the noise from one phase to the other. However, I am still not able to communicate with many devices when I plug the PIM into each phase (with the coupler removed). Some still work to control local load, others are not even resettable to factory defaults--it still seems like I have some fried switches. Resetting the PIM to default did not change the behavior at all; however, it did change it from pulse mode (that it was in) to message mode. I am not sure which mode it is supposed to be in? Perhaps this plugin put it in pulse mode?
              _______________________________________________

              HS3 : HSpro (3.0.0.460) on Win2012 (vm on ESXi)
              Plugins: HSTouch, UPBSpud, Kinect, Nest, IFTTT, DirecTV, EasyTrigger, Imperihome, Zwave, RFXcom, UltraMon3, UltraWeatherBug3, UltraGCIR3, UltraLog3, UltraPioneer, PHLocation, Pushover, Pushalot, MCSSPrinklers S, JowiHue
              Jon00 Plugins: Bluetooth Proximity, Performance Monitor, DB Chart, Links

              Comment


                #8
                Thinking that the plugin talks to the PIM in message mode similiar to the way that the HAI Panel talks to it. Upstart talks in Pulse mode.

                But maybe the plugin is different; Spud would know.

                HAI controllers communicate with the Model 36A00-1 UPB™ Powerline Interface Module in Message Mode. While Message Mode is the factory default mode of the PIM, the UPB™ UPStart configuration software uses the Pulse Mode of the PIM. If the PIM is in Pulse Mode when connected to an HAI controller, the “Receive” LED on the HAI Serial port will be on steady. The Program button on the left side of the Model 36A00-1 can be used to set the PIM to factory default (i.e. back to Message Mode).
                I do not know what is going on. My UPB network is crippled. I have 18 devices, and I am only able to communicate with one of them that is adjacent to the PIM. Most are stuck in off--but a few are stuck on, and cannot be changed either by cycling power, or pressing buttons. In the 7 years of using UPB I have never experienced such a complete failure. I have experience excessive noise from LED Christmas lights and APC UPS, both of which can be isolated with filters. This failure is a complete and utter failure of the the UPB network--no devices working. It's more than a failure of the network though. Switches are not able to control the local load anymore. They are stuck on. No amount of switching will turn off the load.

                Any idea how to go about figuring out what is going on here? Half my house is completely non-functional.

                I am really hoping that I am not looking at 18 bricked devices.
                Curious what did happen to cause this issue? Something change? Did you have a surge; lightning?

                Here even though my previously mentioned electrical debaucle affected mostly Insteon switches; I did replace a few of UPB switches; not really seeing any issues with them; just in case something did happen.

                Do you have any hot spare UPB switches to test with?
                - Pete

                Auto mator
                Homeseer 3 Pro - 3.0.0.548 (Linux) - Ubuntu 18.04/W7e 64 bit Intel Haswell CPU 16Gb
                Homeseer Zee2 (Lite) - 3.0.0.548 (Linux) - Ubuntu 18.04/W7e - CherryTrail x5-Z8350 BeeLink 4Gb BT3 Pro
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                HS4 Pro - V4.1.18.1 - Ubuntu 22.04 / Lenova Tiny M900 / 32Gb Ram
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                X10, UPB, Zigbee, ZWave and Wifi MQTT automation-Tasmota-Espurna. OmniPro 2, Russound zoned audio, Alexa, Cheaper RFID, W800 and Home Assistant

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Pete View Post
                  Thinking that the plugin talks to the PIM in message mode similiar to the way that the HAI Panel talks to it. Upstart talks in Pulse mode.
                  But maybe the plugin is different; Spud would know.
                  Yeah the plugin talks to the PIM in message mode, and it sets the PIM to message mode at start up..

                  Comment


                    #10
                    A while back made up a UPB switch with a plug; taping the leads with electrical tape. Not switching anything but it allowed me to test the switch and mostly the PIM in different rooms type stuff.

                    I you can get new PIM and UPB switch you can test with both.

                    I had an X10 signal tester and I do not remember now if I saw anything with it when sending out UPB. I can't find it anymore and I don't remember if I had lent it or just misplaced it.
                    - Pete

                    Auto mator
                    Homeseer 3 Pro - 3.0.0.548 (Linux) - Ubuntu 18.04/W7e 64 bit Intel Haswell CPU 16Gb
                    Homeseer Zee2 (Lite) - 3.0.0.548 (Linux) - Ubuntu 18.04/W7e - CherryTrail x5-Z8350 BeeLink 4Gb BT3 Pro
                    HS4 Lite - Ubuntu 22.04 / Lenovo Tiny M900 / 32Gb Ram

                    HS4 Pro - V4.1.18.1 - Ubuntu 22.04 / Lenova Tiny M900 / 32Gb Ram
                    HSTouch on Intel tabletop tablets (Jogglers) - Asus AIO - Windows 11

                    X10, UPB, Zigbee, ZWave and Wifi MQTT automation-Tasmota-Espurna. OmniPro 2, Russound zoned audio, Alexa, Cheaper RFID, W800 and Home Assistant

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Pete View Post
                      Curious what did happen to cause this issue? Something change? Did you have a surge; lightning?
                      That's the thing, nothing happened that would explain it.

                      Originally posted by Pete View Post
                      Do you have any hot spare UPB switches to test with?
                      I have a couple of us2-40's that are new in box. It is odd, it seems like my oldest UPB switches are the ones most messed up--of course they are all in the same room so that could be location rather than age.

                      Originally posted by Spud
                      Yeah the plugin talks to the PIM in message mode, and it sets the PIM to message mode at start up..
                      That's what I would have expected. I wonder why the PIM was in pulse mode before I reset it. I noticed that it was in pulse mode every time I used diagnostics in upstart.

                      It is starting to look like I have to remove each malfunctioning switch and test proximal to the PIM. I have e-mailed SA to see if they have suggestions. I would love to blame the PIM somehow--but I still cannot explain the non-responsive switches.

                      All of my electronics are on surge suppressors and are all fine. Also I do not have a whole house surge suppressor so the switches would not be protected from a surge, so I guess it is possible that a nasty surge took them out.
                      _______________________________________________

                      HS3 : HSpro (3.0.0.460) on Win2012 (vm on ESXi)
                      Plugins: HSTouch, UPBSpud, Kinect, Nest, IFTTT, DirecTV, EasyTrigger, Imperihome, Zwave, RFXcom, UltraMon3, UltraWeatherBug3, UltraGCIR3, UltraLog3, UltraPioneer, PHLocation, Pushover, Pushalot, MCSSPrinklers S, JowiHue
                      Jon00 Plugins: Bluetooth Proximity, Performance Monitor, DB Chart, Links

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I doubt very much that your switches are failing due to the PIM. That said I would go slow and start to replace them one at a time.

                        I did something similiar two years ago. I did check my wiring concurrently with the update.

                        Maybe start with the light switches that you utilize every night. Think of the stuff not working as a savings in electricity right now.

                        It sounds like you have exhausted your testing by resetting the switches et al.

                        SA has a two year warranty on their switches. Not sure how old you said your switches were. PCS has a longer warranty. I replaced a PCS phase coupler under warranty a while ago. They were top notch folks.

                        BTW my very first HAI UPB PIM purchased new many years ago was defective which caused me all kinds of grief.

                        Start by purchasing a new PIM and keep either the new or old one as a floater.

                        Here my electric debaucle a few years back was related to putting 220VAC on the 120VAC lines. I do have a commercial surge protector in place and that has worked with lighting strikes. In this case the Insteon switches all failed (actually burned up), while checking all of the wiring and rest of switches; I did update many switches going to smaller footprints with dual load and multitoggle UPB SA switches. Testing the UPB switches as good just shifted them around some. This was were I sort of finished the UPB switch endeavor as I had done only about 1/3 of the house in UPB and rest was still at Insteon. Taking my time; baby steps it was about a 3 month endeavor. If you "need" certain switches to work regularly; then just buy a conventional switch for $2 at a big box hardware store to use until you replace your defective switches.

                        BTW here I did have an issue with a degradation of UPB signal strength a few years back. I am guessing it came from the installation of an in ground pool pump as it was sort of a regular timed degradation in signal.

                        Never have had UPB noise though and always could get to all of the switches.

                        Relating to my degradation in signals I installed a UPB repeater and those issues went away.

                        I still utilize X10 here for my Christmas decorations. Its very quick to set up and response times are excellent covering all interior stuff, windows and outdoor lighting.
                        Last edited by Pete; March 10, 2014, 08:33 AM.
                        - Pete

                        Auto mator
                        Homeseer 3 Pro - 3.0.0.548 (Linux) - Ubuntu 18.04/W7e 64 bit Intel Haswell CPU 16Gb
                        Homeseer Zee2 (Lite) - 3.0.0.548 (Linux) - Ubuntu 18.04/W7e - CherryTrail x5-Z8350 BeeLink 4Gb BT3 Pro
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                        HS4 Pro - V4.1.18.1 - Ubuntu 22.04 / Lenova Tiny M900 / 32Gb Ram
                        HSTouch on Intel tabletop tablets (Jogglers) - Asus AIO - Windows 11

                        X10, UPB, Zigbee, ZWave and Wifi MQTT automation-Tasmota-Espurna. OmniPro 2, Russound zoned audio, Alexa, Cheaper RFID, W800 and Home Assistant

                        Comment


                          #13
                          From reading your posts I'm not sure if you've tried this or not, but I think I would start by turning off every circuit in the house. All of them. (Have a flashlight handy. )

                          Then turn on one circuit with a UPB switch on it. Does that switch work at all? If it controls its load normally, then turn on another circuit with a UPB switch and test both the newly energized switch(s) and the one(s) already on. Keep going until you get a failure.

                          If any switches fail, turn off that circuit again and continue.
                          Mike____________________________________________________________ __________________
                          HS3 Pro Edition 3.0.0.548, NUC i3

                          HW: Stargate | NX8e | CAV6.6 | Squeezebox | PCS | WGL 800RF | RFXCOM | Vantage Pro | Green-Eye | Edgeport/8 | Way2Call | Ecobee3 | EtherRain | Ubiquiti

                          Comment


                            #14
                            jlrichar,

                            Tell us what you find out? I am curious about what happened to your stuff.
                            - Pete

                            Auto mator
                            Homeseer 3 Pro - 3.0.0.548 (Linux) - Ubuntu 18.04/W7e 64 bit Intel Haswell CPU 16Gb
                            Homeseer Zee2 (Lite) - 3.0.0.548 (Linux) - Ubuntu 18.04/W7e - CherryTrail x5-Z8350 BeeLink 4Gb BT3 Pro
                            HS4 Lite - Ubuntu 22.04 / Lenovo Tiny M900 / 32Gb Ram

                            HS4 Pro - V4.1.18.1 - Ubuntu 22.04 / Lenova Tiny M900 / 32Gb Ram
                            HSTouch on Intel tabletop tablets (Jogglers) - Asus AIO - Windows 11

                            X10, UPB, Zigbee, ZWave and Wifi MQTT automation-Tasmota-Espurna. OmniPro 2, Russound zoned audio, Alexa, Cheaper RFID, W800 and Home Assistant

                            Comment


                              #15
                              OK, I finally have this figured out. It turns out to have been an unfortunate mix of two problems at once. The first problem was that there was very high noise on the powerline. This noise both prevented the PIM from seeing the network of devices, and disabled a bunch of my devices.

                              How can noise disable devices? Well, it turns out that if you enable the checkbox to report status if the local switch is activated (which I had), that if it cannot report status, then it will not control the local load. Savvy? This is true for just first gen devices according to the very helpful folks over at simply automated.

                              And let me tell you, I e-mailed, and then called simply automated and they were extremely helpful. I was a little frustrated when I called, but I got to talk to a real knowledgeable human being within 10 seconds of calling, and was basically told "Don't worry, no matter what we will help you fix this". That was just very re-assuring. And it turns out they did help.

                              So what caused all this noise you might ask? This is the part that kind of irritates me. It was my damn GFI. One simple reset of the GFI removed the noise. But in order to find this I had installed UPStart on a laptop, plugged the PIM into that and roamed the house zeroing in on the noise. It was an effective way to find it; however, I put it off for a few days because I had too many other commitments.

                              At any rate, hopefully my story will help someone else in the future to resolve their problem quickly. And we should all hope that we get this kind of support on electronics 8 years after purchasing them. Way to go Simply Automated! Also, thanks to all who helped on this forum--that was also helpful in pointing me down the correct path.
                              _______________________________________________

                              HS3 : HSpro (3.0.0.460) on Win2012 (vm on ESXi)
                              Plugins: HSTouch, UPBSpud, Kinect, Nest, IFTTT, DirecTV, EasyTrigger, Imperihome, Zwave, RFXcom, UltraMon3, UltraWeatherBug3, UltraGCIR3, UltraLog3, UltraPioneer, PHLocation, Pushover, Pushalot, MCSSPrinklers S, JowiHue
                              Jon00 Plugins: Bluetooth Proximity, Performance Monitor, DB Chart, Links

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