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    #16
    Originally posted by ewkearns View Post
    It is my understanding that this forum is not really monitored by the company, nor felt to be representative of the bulk of the users. (I stand to be corrected.)
    1400+ posts in the current beta message base with Rich posting almost daily. Wade also posts daily in several bases as well. There is a large noise to response ratio I will agree but even with most of those other users are usually able to help out. I've been on and off the board for over a decade and it works pretty well. If they spent all day checking out all of the messages here no development would ever happen so if it's a serious bug, those should be sent to support (as well as posted here so we can all take a look lol)

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      #17
      I'll throw in my 2 cents. I work for a company that provides enterprise software on a perpetual license model, subscription on premises, and also cloud. I think all models have their place, but HST's current model is not one that allows for rapid enhancements, though I think they do a great job of releasing new features. Most companies who offer perpetual licenses have more frequent "major" version releases that require a paid upgrade, or they charge an annual maintenance fee. HomeSeer major releases are years apart, and are incredibly inexpensive if you think about the number of releases you get for "free" when you purchase a license.

      I am one of those who would happily pay more to keep up or accelerate the pace of development. I would pay an annual maintenance fee for upgrades. Software that is sold for a fixed price with no maintenance and infrequent major (paid) releases can't sustain a company long term. I know there would be backlash from users here if they did it, but I really hope HST moves to more frequent major (paid) releases with free bug fixes and minor features for point releases. Folks who like what they have and don't wish to upgrade don't have to continue paying, but those like me who like staying current would pay a little more. I'm perfectly happy with that.

      Those who claim the hobby is too expensive (and it is!) and use that as a reason not to pay fair value for the software that runs it all I think are not looking at long term sustainability of the platform.
      HS Pro 3.0 | Linux Ubuntu 16.04 x64 virtualized under Proxmox (KVM)
      Hardware: Z-NET - W800 Serial - Digi PortServer TS/8 and TS/16 serial to Ethernet - Insteon PLM - RFXCOM - X10 Wireless
      Plugins: HSTouch iOS and Android, RFXCOM, BlueIris, BLLock, BLDSC, BLRF, Insteon PLM (MNSandler), Device History, Ecobee, BLRing, Kodi, UltraWeatherWU3
      Second home: Zee S2 with Z-Wave, CT101 Z-Wave Thermostat, Aeotec Z-Wave microswitches, HSM200 occupancy sensor, Ecolink Z-Wave door sensors, STI Driveway Monitor interfaced to Zee S2 GPIO pins.

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by reidfo View Post
        I'll throw in my 2 cents. I work for a company that provides enterprise software on a perpetual license model, subscription on premises, and also cloud. I think all models have their place, but HST's current model is not one that allows for rapid enhancements, though I think they do a great job of releasing new features. Most companies who offer perpetual licenses have more frequent "major" version releases that require a paid upgrade, or they charge an annual maintenance fee. HomeSeer major releases are years apart, and are incredibly inexpensive if you think about the number of releases you get for "free" when you purchase a license.

        I am one of those who would happily pay more to keep up or accelerate the pace of development. I would pay an annual maintenance fee for upgrades. Software that is sold for a fixed price with no maintenance and infrequent major (paid) releases can't sustain a company long term. I know there would be backlash from users here if they did it, but I really hope HST moves to more frequent major (paid) releases with free bug fixes and minor features for point releases. Folks who like what they have and don't wish to upgrade don't have to continue paying, but those like me who like staying current would pay a little more. I'm perfectly happy with that.

        Those who claim the hobby is too expensive (and it is!) and use that as a reason not to pay fair value for the software that runs it all I think are not looking at long term sustainability of the platform.
        How sustainable is that platform when your base leaves because you alienate them with a subscription model? Not only do you kill your base, but you also drive away future business because the average user looking to get into home automation will just go to a non-subscription or open source competitor.

        Comment


          #19
          Just to play devil's advocate a little, how many devices have you bought that offered a low up-front cost with no additional fees for life, then realized that the company quickly stopped offering fixes or enhancements, forcing a new purchase of the new model... I can think of many. Radio Thermostat is a great example. Low up front cost, and promised upgrades that never happened. I ended up throwing away hundreds of dollars worth of thermostats because of this. That's the model many here wish to see continue with HST. I disagree.

          Software development isn't cheap, and I don't expect any company to offer indefinite upgrades (or many years of upgrades) for no additional cost.
          HS Pro 3.0 | Linux Ubuntu 16.04 x64 virtualized under Proxmox (KVM)
          Hardware: Z-NET - W800 Serial - Digi PortServer TS/8 and TS/16 serial to Ethernet - Insteon PLM - RFXCOM - X10 Wireless
          Plugins: HSTouch iOS and Android, RFXCOM, BlueIris, BLLock, BLDSC, BLRF, Insteon PLM (MNSandler), Device History, Ecobee, BLRing, Kodi, UltraWeatherWU3
          Second home: Zee S2 with Z-Wave, CT101 Z-Wave Thermostat, Aeotec Z-Wave microswitches, HSM200 occupancy sensor, Ecolink Z-Wave door sensors, STI Driveway Monitor interfaced to Zee S2 GPIO pins.

          Comment


            #20
            Time to climb up on my soap box.

            I used to be a Microsoft fan boy. I was running my company using windows small business server 2011, windows 7 on the desktop, and a windows phone 7. I really liked where they were headed. Windows phone 7 was abandoned for windows phone 8. I thought it was a good move, hey they figured out the mistakes they made with 7 and now we are good to go. Nope.

            Fast forward to where they are now. (SaaS) There is no small business server, only cloud services. Windows phone is gone. Windows 10 is an advertising platform designed to harvest data for resale. They have a patch Tuesday where you get updates in most cases whether you want them or not. They are starting to feel a lot like Comcast, where you pay a monthly fee to watch commercials.

            Software wise I spent a lot of time learning Linux over the years because I found it to be a fun "hobby". But suddenly I find myself running ESXI 6.5 (free) as a bare metal hyper-visor with NethServer on Cent OS 7 (free) for my dns, domain and email, NextCloud (free) for cloud sharing and other stuff and Linux mint as my desktop computer (free). I did buy vmware workstation pro 14 so I can run any operating system because I have to support my costumers. (some of which are still on XP!)

            The result of this, from a business perspective, is that I have much lower overhead than my competition, both in time and money. I update on my schedule not theirs. I don't have distracting pop ups on my screens. I can add and subtract employees or other general accounts without filling out a form on-line or changing my pricing structure (overhead). Bottom line, I hope all my competitors use the "system as a service Model" I'll win the contract every time.

            Some other things I've noticed and been quite surprised by:

            I made the switch (to linux mint) on my main desktop PC that my kids often borrow to do their homework or whatever and they didn't notice. I had to actually mention it to them, "hey guys your using Linux" The response was "So what dad, it's just a computer"

            Another thing I've noticed is I get way more updates on linux than I ever did on Windows. Bugs are constantly being addressed with direct access to either the git repository or the developer him/her self.

            I apologize if you read through all of this rambling post. In summation I'm pretty sure that at least one of the S'es in SaaS stands for sucks.
            https://forums.homeseer.com/forum/de...plifier-plugin

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by happnatious1 View Post

              I apologize if you read through all of this rambling post. In summation I'm pretty sure that at least one of the S'es in SaaS stands for sucks.
              I'll bite.... It it because software "Sucks As A Service"?

              I work with MSFT Dynamics 365 everyday at work (c# developer, but this is the direction my company is moving in so I adapt). It's ok, but it's funny to watch "the business" ask for things that with our old solution (code maintained in house) was possible but we just can't do in Dynamics because it's a hosted service. I have to say "we just can't do that" a lot more than I used to and from what I hear our actual users aren't liking the new direction very much. But it's a SaaS and SaaS is the future, right?

              Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

              Comment


                #22
                Amen brother!
                https://forums.homeseer.com/forum/de...plifier-plugin

                Comment


                  #23
                  NO NO NO. I would leave if HS changed to a subscription model. I like to OWN things not borrow someone's crap. I also want a fully functional HA system that does not rely on the internet.

                  Before I came to HS I was using HomeAssistant. That was a fun experiment. I am pretty good with computers but do not have any programming background. I was able to get it up and running on a Pi3 (no previous linux experience either). I was able to get basic automatons working but it isn't nearly as easy as HomeSeer (at least for me). Their documentation is all over the place and it's not very noob friendly. Then they wanted $5 a month for their cloud services so they can integrate with Ghome and Alexa. I was excited about the google home integration as I have 2 of them. But I am not willing to pay a subscription to integrate it into a home automation system. I immediately started looking for another solution. That's when I found HomeSeer. My setup is still pretty basic but I love what HomeSeer has to offer and just purchased the pro upgrade. I am definitely willing to buy future updates if they bring good value.

                  Unfortunately the pay as you go sub model exists because of the "I want it now" mentality and poor budgeting skills of most people. (Americans at least) They HAVE things that they don't OWN and can't AFFORD and they are broke. So any disruption in the economy or their personal health and they have NOTHING. It is almost always better to save and purchase so that you own something rather than renting or borrowing(money or in this case software).

                  As someone mentioned earlier, the sub model also disincentives companies from innovating and improving their product. Normally when a company makes a product and sells it for a profit they are incentivized to them make another product or an improved updated product to make more money. This keeps the evil/greed in companies working for the consumer.(I'm not saying making money is greedy or evil but can be). So as soon as you agree to a subscription you hand over your market power to the company and hope and trust they continue to work in your favor. And they probably will until they stifle out the competition. Then what happens?

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Great support !!!!!! Can't even get replies to Bug reports.. Don't by they (Homeseer) don't support it !!! Waste of money.. Bad program .. I know started with HS1.X .. They just take your money and you get stuck with junk.. There's to many much better HA programs even free one are supported better than HS3 !!!!!



                    Originally posted by Rhinn View Post
                    NO NO NO. I would leave if HS changed to a subscription model. I like to OWN things not borrow someone's crap. I also want a fully functional HA system that does not rely on the internet.

                    Before I came to HS I was using HomeAssistant. That was a fun experiment. I am pretty good with computers but do not have any programming background. I was able to get it up and running on a Pi3 (no previous linux experience either). I was able to get basic automatons working but it isn't nearly as easy as HomeSeer (at least for me). Their documentation is all over the place and it's not very noob friendly. Then they wanted $5 a month for their cloud services so they can integrate with Ghome and Alexa. I was excited about the google home integration as I have 2 of them. But I am not willing to pay a subscription to integrate it into a home automation system. I immediately started looking for another solution. That's when I found HomeSeer. My setup is still pretty basic but I love what HomeSeer has to offer and just purchased the pro upgrade. I am definitely willing to buy future updates if they bring good value.

                    Unfortunately the pay as you go sub model exists because of the "I want it now" mentality and poor budgeting skills of most people. (Americans at least) They HAVE things that they don't OWN and can't AFFORD and they are broke. So any disruption in the economy or their personal health and they have NOTHING. It is almost always better to save and purchase so that you own something rather than renting or borrowing(money or in this case software).

                    As someone mentioned earlier, the sub model also disincentives companies from innovating and improving their product. Normally when a company makes a product and sells it for a profit they are incentivized to them make another product or an improved updated product to make more money. This keeps the evil/greed in companies working for the consumer.(I'm not saying making money is greedy or evil but can be). So as soon as you agree to a subscription you hand over your market power to the company and hope and trust they continue to work in your favor. And they probably will until they stifle out the competition. Then what happens?

                    Comment


                      #25
                      I'll jump in here...

                      One of the reasons I chose HomeSeer was that it was NOT subscription based.

                      That being said, I would be open to a nominal monthly or annual "support" subscription, perhaps one that yielded discounts on major updates and hardware, faster support response, (although I've never found the existing support lacking). I know these have been options in the past, it might be worth re-examining the previous programs.

                      A steady revenue stream could help fund continued development and expansion of the HS platform, but not a fan of switching to a subscription mode for use.
                      My home is smarter than your honor roll student.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        AS I expected the general position of no subscription model is fairly rock hard and I'm in that same camp.

                        That said there is the annual support HS sells although there isn't much information on it. They need to make more people aware of it plus I'd like to see hardware coverage for HS devices included and maybe a tiered plan that start at l lower price but does not include as many support calls.
                        HomeSeer Version: HS3 Standard Edition 3.0.0.548
                        Linux version: Linux auto 4.15.0-72-generic #81-Ubuntu SMP Tue Nov 26 12:20:02 UTC 2019 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
                        Number of Devices: 484 | Number of Events: 776

                        Enabled Plug-Ins: 3.0.0.13: AirplaySpeak | 2.0.61.0: BLBackup
                        3.0.0.70: EasyTrigger | 1.3.7006.42100: LiftMaster MyQ
                        4.2.3.0: mcsMQTT | 3.0.0.53: PHLocation2 | 0.0.0.47: Pushover 3P
                        3.0.0.16: RaspberryIO | 3.0.1.262: Z-Wave

                        Z-Net version: 1.0.23 for Inclusion Nodes
                        SmartStick+: 6.04 (ZDK 6.81.3) on Server

                        Comment


                          #27
                          this is a hobby for me so if was a subscription based.. nope..

                          adobe, as mentioned, went subscription and glad my son gets a free account in his engineering class in HS but is a senior. I gotta find out how much longer we get it for free then its uninstalled.


                          I replied to another post about 2 guys at work.. here is a direct chat from one guy..

                          its more the price vs i don't think its much easier to setup an manage.
                          vs the freee stuff
                          HW - i5 4570T @2.9ghz runs @11w | 8gb ram | 128gb ssd OS - Win10 x64

                          HS - HS3 Pro Edition 3.0.0.435

                          Plugins - BLRF 2.0.94.0 | Concord 4 3.1.13.10 | HSBuddy 3.9.605.5 | HSTouch Server 3.0.0.68 | RFXCOM 30.0.0.36 | X10 3.0.0.36 | Z-Wave 3.0.1.190

                          Hardware - EdgePort/4 DB9 Serial | RFXCOM 433MHz USB Transceiver | Superbus 2000 for Concord 4 | TI103 X-10 Interface | WGL Designs W800 RF | Z-Net Z-Wave Interface

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by reidfo View Post
                            I would pay an annual maintenance fee for upgrades.
                            To me, this would be the key for any type of subscription model I would pay for. The issue I have with any type of SaaS, versus a maintenance subscription, is that once the vendor goes broke, the software typically stops working. Security of our homes requires the software we use to be stable and not reliant on the internet or periodic keep-alives to keep running.

                            There have been too many systems that have gone belly up leaving people with useless setups. This is fine for some things, just not for systems that run our homes.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              I'm going against the grain here. I brought HS3 at 50% off a few years ago. I've since spent maybe 20X that value on hardware and that spend continues to rise.

                              Given HS3 is the beating heart of my HA platform and has proven to be rock solid over this time I feel I've not paid enough for the value I'm getting in relative terms to the overall investment.

                              I would be VERY happy with a nominal annual fee if I knew that money was going into development to keep things up to date. Id love to see the 1980s GUI or awful mobile experience move into this decade.

                              Thank god for Imperihome!! It's easy to use interface enables WAF for me.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by Stevemeck View Post
                                I'm going against the grain here. I brought HS3 at 50% off a few years ago. I've since spent maybe 20X that value on hardware and that spend continues to rise.

                                Given HS3 is the beating heart of my HA platform and has proven to be rock solid over this time I feel I've not paid enough for the value I'm getting in relative terms to the overall investment.

                                I would be VERY happy with a nominal annual fee if I knew that money was going into development to keep things up to date. Id love to see the 1980s GUI or awful mobile experience move into this decade.

                                Thank god for Imperihome!! It's easy to use interface enables WAF for me.


                                I'll cosign this. I've been a user for less than a year and I already feel I paid too little for it. I'm happy about that, but I also recognize what many others are saying, which is that it's simply not a model that allows frequent and high-quality development.

                                I don't think I'd want a subscription model, but I would absolutely do optional software support agreements to be able to speed up development and improve the platform overall. Totally optional, not something you HAVE to do, but something I think a ton of people would pay for.

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