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    LED light and switch with no neutral.

    So, In my utility closet, I had one of those ceramic bulb holders in the ceiling connected to a switch by only 2 wire (power run to light, then 2 wire run to switch). When I redid the utility closet in '12, I didn't think about fixing this (I wasn't doing home automation then). I have had LED bulbs in there in the past, but they didn't like being upside down, so I removed them and put in a regular incandescent bulb (they would blink, after being on for so long).

    Now, in that closet is a 42U rack on casters and shelving, my A/C unit, etc. I've been working on the Rack recently and everytime I move it, I'm scared I'm going to hit the bulb and break it. I know the rack isn't really tall enough to do that, but if something was put on top, it might, or someone might hit it putting something away.

    Either way, I bought and replace the ceramic bulb base with a Phillips LED flush mount fixture (made to look like a recessed light). And now it blinks when the light is off. I know there are ways to fix this with resistors, and I'm not opposed to that, but I'm more curious if in the mean time if this will hurt the fixture in anyway. It was $25 and I don't want to throw that money away.


    I am also considering running another 2 wire to the light so it can have a dimmer with a neutral, but that will require cutting out some drywall, and I'm not sure I want to tackle that... not to mention I think they ran the A/C duct right over this fixture, so getting to it from the attic will be pain (though not impossible).

    So....thoughts? Should I use the Air gap in the switch until I can run another romex line to it, or should it be ok?

    #2
    Well, I removed it. The Dimmer started not working correctly (it would turn immediately then back off)... this continued after I put the old fixture back in, but eventually it started working again.

    I will have to look at running another romex to the switch. Since I have in the past actually changed what breaker that light is on, I will actually just remove the power from the ceiling fixture and run the power to the switch location instead.

    I've attached a picture about why I don't want the light in there like that. It has about 6" of clearance, but that is still too close to call. Also note that directly above this light is the A/C ducting so no room to swap it out for a "true" recessed light (which I think wouldn't be necessary).
    Attached Files

    Comment


      #3
      Tearing the walls apart to wire a switch sounds expensive.

      I did not notice any mention if the closet has a glass door or if you have a need for scene or mood lighting. If you don't need the dimming you might consider an embedded relay module mounted in the ceiling box. Of course there are options such as the Aeotec Nano dimmers, but a relay module would eliminate any flickering.

      A cheap way to eliminate flicker is to increase the load on the dimmer. I would experiment with a "Y" adapter and a couple of higher wattage LED bulbs. Y adapters would probably lower the light 2 or 3 inches but you would find out what your dimmers sweet spot is for loading. In a few areas of my unfinished basement I use 3 Y adapters tied together and 4-75W equivalent LED floods. I am not worried about the tying the Y's together because the loading is minimal with LED bulbs.

      For the low profile needs have you considered an LED type T8 fluorescent style fixture which should give a bit better dispersion than a central mounted Edison based bulb.

      If the rack is on display or if you need to adjust controls on it, indirect LED lighting might be an option. Hiding flexible LED strips on the inside of the closet behind the frame molding could provide illumination to the front of the rack allowing you to see the controls without seeing the source of light. RGB would be an option and a new plug in to play with

      Comment


        #4
        I thought of you right away.

        http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercia...CLookalike%7CA

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by racerfern View Post

          Yes, but it doesn't dim. You can run LEDs on any non-dimming Z-Wave switch without a neutral.
          Originally posted by rprade
          There is no rhyme or reason to the anarchy a defective Z-Wave device can cause

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by S-F View Post
            Yes, but it doesn't dim. You can run LEDs on any non-dimming Z-Wave switch without a neutral.
            I only know of one z-wave switch that doesn't require a neutral (Leviton VRS05-1LZ). Are there others? There are a few z-wave dimming options on the market, including Leviton and Cooper. The GE one was discontinued a few years ago.

            Cheers
            Al

            EDIT: Looks like Cooper has a switch as well that doesn't require a neutral.
            HS 4.2.8.0: 2134 Devices 1252 Events
            Z-Wave 3.0.10.0: 133 Nodes on one Z-Net

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by sparkman View Post
              I only know of one z-wave switch that doesn't require a neutral (Leviton VRS05-1LZ). Are there others? There are a few z-wave dimming options on the market, including Leviton and Cooper. The GE one was discontinued a few years ago.

              Cheers
              Al

              EDIT: Looks like Cooper has a switch as well that doesn't require a neutral.
              Eh? I was talking about NOT dimming. All of the Z-Wave switches (NOT dimmers) don't need a neutral, correct? I have a bunch of GE switches controlling no dimming CFL and LED bulbs with no neutral.
              Originally posted by rprade
              There is no rhyme or reason to the anarchy a defective Z-Wave device can cause

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by sparkman View Post
                I only know of one z-wave switch that doesn't require a neutral (Leviton VRS05-1LZ). Are there others? There are a few z-wave dimming options on the market, including Leviton and Cooper. The GE one was discontinued a few years ago.

                Cheers
                Al

                EDIT: Looks like Cooper has a switch as well that doesn't require a neutral.
                I run LEDs all over my house on levitons that don't require a neutral. This one location though has given me trouble. LIkely because it's only 1 light (thoguht it worked for years with only 1 bulb, but then the bulb started blinking after 5 minutes of being on). I'm reinsulating and sealing up the attic, so I'll just try and find a way to run a new line to the switch. It won't be easy since I have a ton of recessed outlets on that wall for my network UPS. Might require a hole here or there in the closet to fish it down.

                I've included pictures before and after drywall. The switch is on the other side of the wall (but lower) than the 4 gang box on the left. That box goes all the way to the back drywall (it fills the space in the wall). I might be able to remove it (it just screws in) and use that hole to help fish the wire down. Then I'll probably have to cut a hole behind the switch so I can get it in the box. I don't look for ward to this, but it would be the "right" way.
                Attached Files

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by S-F View Post
                  Eh? I was talking about NOT dimming. All of the Z-Wave switches (NOT dimmers) don't need a neutral, correct? I have a bunch of GE switches controlling no dimming CFL and LED bulbs with no neutral.
                  Yes, understood that. All of the switches I have (excluding the Leviton VRS05-1LZ) require a neutral for the electronics in the switch. What model of GE switch doesn't require a neutral?

                  Cheers
                  Al
                  HS 4.2.8.0: 2134 Devices 1252 Events
                  Z-Wave 3.0.10.0: 133 Nodes on one Z-Net

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by sparkman View Post
                    Yes, understood that. All of the switches I have (excluding the Leviton VRS05-1LZ) require a neutral for the electronics in the switch. What model of GE switch doesn't require a neutral?

                    Cheers
                    Al

                    Not sure of the model numbers. Here my older 1950's house has many switch loops, so no neutral in the box. I have all of these on GE paddle style dimmers and switches. I got most of them 5 or so years ago when RadioSHack had their Z-Wave fire sale. I have since gotten a few from other retailers. The dimmers use incandescent bulbs and the switches use LEDs or CFLs.
                    Originally posted by rprade
                    There is no rhyme or reason to the anarchy a defective Z-Wave device can cause

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by sirmeili View Post
                      I run LEDs all over my house on levitons that don't require a neutral. This one location though has given me trouble. LIkely because it's only 1 light (thoguht it worked for years with only 1 bulb, but then the bulb started blinking after 5 minutes of being on). I'm reinsulating and sealing up the attic, so I'll just try and find a way to run a new line to the switch. It won't be easy since I have a ton of recessed outlets on that wall for my network UPS. Might require a hole here or there in the closet to fish it down.

                      I've included pictures before and after drywall. The switch is on the other side of the wall (but lower) than the 4 gang box on the left. That box goes all the way to the back drywall (it fills the space in the wall). I might be able to remove it (it just screws in) and use that hole to help fish the wire down. Then I'll probably have to cut a hole behind the switch so I can get it in the box. I don't look for ward to this, but it would be the "right" way.
                      Is there room for an Aeotec micro switch in the ceiling electrical box?

                      Cheers
                      Al
                      HS 4.2.8.0: 2134 Devices 1252 Events
                      Z-Wave 3.0.10.0: 133 Nodes on one Z-Net

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Kitar View Post
                        Tearing the walls apart to wire a switch sounds expensive.
                        Saying I already ripped all the drywall out of this room in 2012, yes, very expensive. Unfortunately when I did it I wasn't into HA and wasn't really aware of why you would want/need a neutral in the switch boxes. Had I known, I would have jsut fixed it then (picture attached)

                        Originally posted by Kitar View Post
                        I did not notice any mention if the closet has a glass door or if you have a need for scene or mood lighting. If you don't need the dimming you might consider an embedded relay module mounted in the ceiling box. Of course there are options such as the Aeotec Nano dimmers, but a relay module would eliminate any flickering.
                        .

                        This is purely a utility closet. The rack faces out into the living room, but you can't see into the closet from there. It houses my rack, 3 42" SMCs, and my Air handler.

                        I have thought of a micro-dimmer, but it's a pretty shallow box and it's hard to replace since the main A/C duct runs right above it (2x4 trusses as well). It's not an easy space to get to at this time.

                        Originally posted by Kitar View Post
                        A cheap way to eliminate flicker is to increase the load on the dimmer. I would experiment with a "Y" adapter and a couple of higher wattage LED bulbs. Y adapters would probably lower the light 2 or 3 inches but you would find out what your dimmers sweet spot is for loading. In a few areas of my unfinished basement I use 3 Y adapters tied together and 4-75W equivalent LED floods. I am not worried about the tying the Y's together because the loading is minimal with LED bulbs.
                        I have to be careful how far down the lights go. I went with a more flush mount because the rack is already over 7.5' and it needs to be able to move around.

                        Originally posted by Kitar View Post
                        For the low profile needs have you considered an LED type T8 fluorescent style fixture which should give a bit better dispersion than a central mounted Edison based bulb.
                        I haven't thought of this but the room is quite a bit smaller than one might think. By time everything is in there, you have about 4 sq ft of walking room right inside the door. The closet itself i think is only 5'x6'. I might have to give more consideration to this, but at the end of the day, I think running 1 line of romex might still be in order. I do like having a light that would provide more "coverage" like a t8 would.

                        Originally posted by Kitar View Post
                        If the rack is on display or if you need to adjust controls on it, indirect LED lighting might be an option. Hiding flexible LED strips on the inside of the closet behind the frame molding could provide illumination to the front of the rack allowing you to see the controls without seeing the source of light. RGB would be an option and a new plug in to play with
                        The rack is on display, but as I stated (a few lines up), that part of it is facing into the living room and isn't lit by this switch. I have been wanting to add lights and I wish it was something I considered while the drywall was down.

                        I've attached a few images so you can see the room. I greatly appreciate your thoughts and suggestions, you've given me a lot to consider and I'm sorry I missed this post originally
                        Attached Files

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by sparkman View Post
                          Is there room for an Aeotec micro switch in the ceiling electrical box?

                          Cheers
                          Al
                          Not really. It's a pretty shallow box, which is understandable as it was meant only as a closet light. What makes it worse is the A/C main duct runs above it, so it's hard to remove and replace (Which I've considered). originally that switch was on another circuit, but I moved it over (in the attic with 2 junction boxes) to one of the circuits I added to that closet (it originally had no power). Because of this, I can run power from the last junction box down to the switch and then disconnect and "pull" the old line out of the box without having to actually have access to it. The bear will be getting the romex to the wall switch, but only because of the obstacles in the wall.

                          I've come to the conclusion that for now running the romex is not only going to solve the issue, but I've already retro fitted a ton of my switches to have neutrals (none had it when I started) and it would just make it "right". I've already re-wired my kitchen, dining room, some of the living room and some of the bedrooms (the ceiling fans in all the rooms were run to an outlet above the garage with only control at the fans). It sucks to have to rewire so much, but the way it was all wired was so messed up in so many places!!!

                          Comment


                            #14
                            At least you have a ranch! Imagine the nightmare you'd have to go through if you had a slab on grade house with more than one story and no attic!
                            Originally posted by rprade
                            There is no rhyme or reason to the anarchy a defective Z-Wave device can cause

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by S-F View Post
                              At least you have a ranch! Imagine the nightmare you'd have to go through if you had a slab on grade house with more than one story and no attic!
                              I could see how that would suck, but I hate doing work in the attic. The roof slope is just shallow enough that I can't stand up and towards the eaves it's hard to get to. I also kinda wish they would have used trusses without webbing. I realize it would mean I would have load bearing interior walls (I have none right now), but I would gladly have a load bearing wall if I didn't have to deal with the damn truss webbing...LOL

                              Oh, and I almost bought a house when I bought my current one that had a crawl space. I think that would have been wonderful compared to working in an attic.

                              Comment

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