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    Can sharing neutral with other circuits cause comm issues?

    Hi,

    (not plugin related but Insteon related)

    I've got some circuits in the kitchen sharing neutral wires (dishwasher, disposal, and 2 other circuits). I'm also having some comm issues in the kitchen. I researched and see there are reasons to share a neutral wire when wiring certain things, but it seems to me that doing so would cancel out the Insteon power line messages travelling down those two circuits' neutral wires. Is that belief correct? I have 1 power-line-only ICON dimmer that is most affected but even 2 dual-band dimmers miss a beat every once in a while. If my assumptions are correct, is there anything I can do about it?

    Thanks!
    HS4, Insteon, Z-wave, USB-UIRT, Harmony Hubs, Google Hub/Chromecasts/Speakers, Foscam & Amcrest cameras, EZVIZ DB1 doorbell
    Plugins: BLLAN, BLOccupied, BLUSBUIRT, Chromecast, Harmony Hub, Insteon, Jon00 Homeseer/Echo Skill Helper, Harmony Hub, Jon00 DB Charting, MediaController, NetCAM, PHLocation2, Pushover 3P, weatherXML, Z-wave

    #2
    Mike,

    i don't have documentation to back up the follow, just opinion

    Sharing a neutral wire isn't a problem as long as the hot sides are on opposite legs of your electrical service. And I believe messages are only sent on the Hot line. The neutral wire doesn't have enough voltage to carry a message. The neutral line are required to complete the circuit to keep power to the device.
    the dishwasher and disposal would only cause comm issues while they are running, so you could easily eliminate them as the problem.

    what's on the '2 other circuits' you listed above?

    is the icon dimmer on one of the other 2 circuits?

    do you have a new dual band switchlinc that you could swap in for the ICON dimmer as a test to rule out the icon switch as faulty?
    Mark

    HS3 Pro 4.2.19.5
    Hardware: Insteon Serial PLM | AD2USB for Vista Alarm | HAI Omnistat2 | 1-Wire HA7E | RFXrec433 | Dahua Cameras | LiftMaster Internet Gateway | Tuya Smart Plugs
    Plugins: Insteon (mine) | Vista Alarm (mine) | Omnistat 3 | Ultra1Wire3 | RFXCOM | HS MyQ | BLRadar | BLDenon | Tuya | Jon00 Charting | Jon00 Links
    Platform: Windows Server 2022 Standard, i5-12600K/3.7GHz/10 core, 16GB RAM, 500GB SSD

    Comment


      #3
      Thanks for your input, Mark. I had in my mind that a telephone tech support rep told me once that the power line signals go down the neutral, but I could be misremembering. I looked for information online to back that up but have been unable thus far.

      Either way, upon further investigation, it is all of my powerline only devices on this circuit that are having issues. Not just the one ICON. 3 ICON dimmer switches, and 1 of the old style plugin dimmer modules. All 4 are having comm issues. Very rarely a dual-band device on this circuit will have issues as well but not nearly as often.

      Your suggestion got me to thinking... Are you thinking one of my devices on this circuit are causing noise and it is not related to the sharing of neutral? Instead of replacing, I went and disabled (via pulling out the set button) each of the ICONs independently and ran a comm test. I was still getting failures on the other switches no matter which of the 3 I disabled. Does that rule out those 3 as being faulty units creating noise? Equivalent to replacing? I can't reach the old plugin module at the moment so I can't easily test that but I'm not hopeful. I have some old and new powerline only devices on other circuits that are behaving fine.

      This circuit has been the worst, comm wise, ever since I moved into this house, and I just made it worse while hoping to solve it by replacing 3-wire switches that shared a common with this circuit while being attached to another leg/phase of power, with the 2-wire variety. My thought before I started this thread was that perhaps the extra switches attached to this circuit's neutral added enough strength to the Insteon signal coming in from the disposal bridge that this out of phase signal became the stronger one and things worked better. Is that possible? (only if neutral is how the signal travels, I know)

      I used to have 4 switches from the other leg sharing the neutral of this kitchen circuit. 2 were dummy switches in 3-way situations, so only 2 of them actually controlled a load. The kitchen circuit still had flaky comm back then, but better than it is now. I have recently removed 2 of those switches entirely to the kitchen circuit (the dummies, no load), and 2 completely off of that circuit (the 2-wire dimmers). Now power line comm is worse on the kitchen circuit. Seemingly bad enough that it screws up my usually rock solid dual band devices on this circuit from time to time. Seems like a noise issue but if not from this circuit, where? Other circuits seem fine and I believe I have Insteon devices on most if not each breaker. That garbage disposal neutral bridge to this circuit is the only thing I can think of. If that's the case I don't know if or how I can solve it. If that's possibly not the case I'm definitely open to more troubleshooting.

      Mike
      HS4, Insteon, Z-wave, USB-UIRT, Harmony Hubs, Google Hub/Chromecasts/Speakers, Foscam & Amcrest cameras, EZVIZ DB1 doorbell
      Plugins: BLLAN, BLOccupied, BLUSBUIRT, Chromecast, Harmony Hub, Insteon, Jon00 Homeseer/Echo Skill Helper, Harmony Hub, Jon00 DB Charting, MediaController, NetCAM, PHLocation2, Pushover 3P, weatherXML, Z-wave

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by mnsandler View Post
        Mike,
        what's on the '2 other circuits' you listed above?

        is the icon dimmer on one of the other 2 circuits?
        To answer these directly, this troubled kitchen circuit is one of those '2 others', and the other is some kitchen plugs. Yes, the ICON, and 2 others like it, are on the troubled 'kitchen' circuit.

        There is more than one kitchen circuit but for sake of simplicity when I say 'kitchen circuit' I'm referring to the on that is having comm issues.

        Thanks
        HS4, Insteon, Z-wave, USB-UIRT, Harmony Hubs, Google Hub/Chromecasts/Speakers, Foscam & Amcrest cameras, EZVIZ DB1 doorbell
        Plugins: BLLAN, BLOccupied, BLUSBUIRT, Chromecast, Harmony Hub, Insteon, Jon00 Homeseer/Echo Skill Helper, Harmony Hub, Jon00 DB Charting, MediaController, NetCAM, PHLocation2, Pushover 3P, weatherXML, Z-wave

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by mrceolla View Post
          To answer these directly, this troubled kitchen circuit is one of those '2 others', and the other is some kitchen plugs. Yes, the ICON, and 2 others like it, are on the troubled 'kitchen' circuit.

          There is more than one kitchen circuit but for sake of simplicity when I say 'kitchen circuit' I'm referring to the on that is having comm issues.

          Thanks
          you could try cutting one of the two kitchen breakers at a time and retest comm; that should help identify if independently they are working ok. then you would know if sharing the neutral was causing the problem.

          the 2-wire switchlincs are RF only. so i doubt they would have caused a powerline problems. disabling a switchlinc by pulling the set btn is a good test.

          have you unplugged all devices like microwaves, appliances, etc on the kitchen circuits?
          Mark

          HS3 Pro 4.2.19.5
          Hardware: Insteon Serial PLM | AD2USB for Vista Alarm | HAI Omnistat2 | 1-Wire HA7E | RFXrec433 | Dahua Cameras | LiftMaster Internet Gateway | Tuya Smart Plugs
          Plugins: Insteon (mine) | Vista Alarm (mine) | Omnistat 3 | Ultra1Wire3 | RFXCOM | HS MyQ | BLRadar | BLDenon | Tuya | Jon00 Charting | Jon00 Links
          Platform: Windows Server 2022 Standard, i5-12600K/3.7GHz/10 core, 16GB RAM, 500GB SSD

          Comment


            #6
            I think flipping the breakers only disconnects the hot wire. I base this on the fact that when I was replacing a dead dimmer on this kitchen circuit about 6 months ago, with the kitchen breaker flipped off, I was getting some arcing across the common wires in the junction box I was working in, and the lights attached to the other leg's hot wire on a different circuit, but sharing this kitchen circuit's neutral wire, were turning on/off as the neutral wires in the junction box were coming in and out of contact with each other. This seems to indicate the neutral wire still has a path even when that circuit's breaker is off. So, if signals travel down the neutral wire then I don't think flipping a breaker will help identify anything, but it's worth a shot. I'll try to attempt that this weekend.

            Yes, the 2-wire switches are RF only and also are not connected to this troublesome kitchen circuit in any way.

            I haven't unplugged other devices yet. I thought they would only interfere with comm if they were running. Is that not the case for all appliances?

            I even own two of those filter plugin modules for appliances. I bought them a year or two ago in hopes of helping comm in this area. One is on the frig, the other is on the upstairs entertainment center equipment. These modules didn't seem to make any difference. FYI, the entertainment center stuff is on the troublesome kitchen circuit. I will try unplugging some of these things and test comm.

            Thanks!
            HS4, Insteon, Z-wave, USB-UIRT, Harmony Hubs, Google Hub/Chromecasts/Speakers, Foscam & Amcrest cameras, EZVIZ DB1 doorbell
            Plugins: BLLAN, BLOccupied, BLUSBUIRT, Chromecast, Harmony Hub, Insteon, Jon00 Homeseer/Echo Skill Helper, Harmony Hub, Jon00 DB Charting, MediaController, NetCAM, PHLocation2, Pushover 3P, weatherXML, Z-wave

            Comment


              #7
              yes, you should cut both breakers when working on either circuit. not an issue here.

              I think this is a noise/attenuation problem. so you need to pull everything off the circuits and test as you reconnect devices.

              cutting breakers just helps eliminate everything (noisy, etc) on a circuit all at once. this should help you tell if having one circuit is causing a problem for the other or vice versa.

              any appliance that has electronics and lights up even when not running can cause problems. the filters general work to eliminate noise from know culprits.

              crazy that your entertainment center is on the kitchen circuit. I would rewire that just for the separation; if possible of course.

              i'll wait until you do more testing this weekend and report back

              keep a log of what you do/try
              Mark

              HS3 Pro 4.2.19.5
              Hardware: Insteon Serial PLM | AD2USB for Vista Alarm | HAI Omnistat2 | 1-Wire HA7E | RFXrec433 | Dahua Cameras | LiftMaster Internet Gateway | Tuya Smart Plugs
              Plugins: Insteon (mine) | Vista Alarm (mine) | Omnistat 3 | Ultra1Wire3 | RFXCOM | HS MyQ | BLRadar | BLDenon | Tuya | Jon00 Charting | Jon00 Links
              Platform: Windows Server 2022 Standard, i5-12600K/3.7GHz/10 core, 16GB RAM, 500GB SSD

              Comment


                #8
                are they on the same phase as the rest of the ones?
                do you have a phase coupler on that panel?
                check for cheap power supplies on that circuit (cell phone chargers, clocks, radios, things like that cause interference)

                Comment


                  #9
                  i confirmed with my Insteon contact that the signal travels on the hot line, and sharing a neutral shouldn't cause a signal problem.

                  you are definitely have a noise issue
                  Mark

                  HS3 Pro 4.2.19.5
                  Hardware: Insteon Serial PLM | AD2USB for Vista Alarm | HAI Omnistat2 | 1-Wire HA7E | RFXrec433 | Dahua Cameras | LiftMaster Internet Gateway | Tuya Smart Plugs
                  Plugins: Insteon (mine) | Vista Alarm (mine) | Omnistat 3 | Ultra1Wire3 | RFXCOM | HS MyQ | BLRadar | BLDenon | Tuya | Jon00 Charting | Jon00 Links
                  Platform: Windows Server 2022 Standard, i5-12600K/3.7GHz/10 core, 16GB RAM, 500GB SSD

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Powerline signals travel "out" on the hot wire, and "return" on the neutral exactly the same way the ac power does. Having a common neutral shared by two circuits just means that two legs of Insteon devices share the same neutral, which isn't a problem. Mark is correct that you have a noise/loading problem. Refer to these posts for a number of ideas on where to look:

                    http://board.homeseer.com/showthread...ne#post1226477

                    http://board.homeseer.com/showpost.p...38&postcount=5

                    From your description, I would be suspicious of your dishwasher. If it is a newer one with an electronic control panel, it probably has a built-in power surge suppressor similar to most computers. Some designs did not anticipate there being "useful" noise on the power (Insteon signals) and were just designed to kill anything that isn't 60Hz AC power. That type drastically loads Insteon signals so they can't get through to their destination. The dishwasher's filter (like all computers) will be online whether the device is turned on or not, so it affects Insteon full time, not just when its running. Since you can't just shut off the breaker, you may need to open the bottom panel and disconnect the hot wire coming into the dishwasher to get it off line while leaving everything else on to see if it is the culprit.

                    It is also possible that the problem is somewhere else altogether (your computer perhaps) which is weakening the signal everywhere, but those circuits are farther from the PLM so they show the problem first.

                    Good luck!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Thank you very much for the input, both of you. It gives me a lot to think about and try. I think I may still be misunderstanding how Insteon signals travel, and perhaps AC in general. You had said:

                      Originally posted by Burrington View Post
                      Powerline signals travel "out" on the hot wire, and "return" on the neutral exactly the same way the ac power does.
                      Are you saying the signal goes from the device down the hot wire to the breaker box, or from the device through the load and back down the neutral? I didn't think anything could 'return' on the neutral by going to the breaker box first. AC is directional, correct? It travels out the breaker box on the hot wire and returns on the neutral? Does the Insteon signal travel in that direction or against it?

                      I have cut power to my dishwasher which is actually on a separate circuit (I think sharing a neutral with yet a different circuit), cut power to the garbage disposal which shares a neutral with this circuit, unplugged everything I could from this circuit, unplugged my UPSs and TV on different circuits, disabled individual Insteon devices on this circuit, granted not all of this at the same time, yet nothing I tried improved the situation any. I can't determine the source of the problem. BTW, my fridge is on a FilterLinc and a separate circuit.

                      Are signal killers and noise creators different beasts or essentially the same thing?

                      If a dual-band device receives a solid RF communication but some noise over the powerline, does that confuse it?

                      What do you mean by 'load Insteon signals'?

                      Burrington, after reading your other posts I know you are a proponent of FilterLincs on many things, and I have one on this troublesome circuit for the entertainment center (living room and kitchen lights on same circuit), but I thought RF was supposed to help solve the problem of powerline signal killers. I could see how noise creators could cause confusion to dual-band devices, though that would seem like poor design. I have numerous dual-band devices on this circuit. One just 8-10 feet away from the PLM. It gets good comm. If my powerline only devices on this circuit are suffering the most, and dual-band devices are supposed to relay messages to/from powerline only devices, and no other circuits are having these problems, it leads me to believe the problem is on this circuit. Does that assumption sound correct? Should my dual-band device on this troublesome circuit which is near the PLM eliminate the possibility of noise makers or signal killers on other circuits affecting this circuit?

                      That said, I unplugged my TV and UPSs on different circuits and that didn't seem to change anything either. Still seems to me that the RF signal shouldn't be affected by that stuff, and I have many dual-band devices around the house that are getting good comm. So confusing.

                      If all of my lights and devices are working, is there any chance an incorrect or loose wiring connection exists somewhere that could cause these problems?

                      When I test communication on this circuit my powerline only devices will often show 1 hop successes, and seemingly completely random failures, all in the same 4 ping test. Sometimes all 4 succeed in 1 hop. I do many sequential tests back to back and the failures vs successes don't correlate to anything running. Does this offer any clues?

                      Every other row in a circuit breaker box is on the same leg/phase, correct?

                      This circuit had better communication when 2 other circuits on the other leg/phase had some switches sharing a neutral with this circuit. Since I separated those circuits the communication problems on this circuit got much worse. Does this offer any clues?

                      Is it possible to have too many Insteon devices on one circuit?

                      I looked at that x-10 meter which is still available. Might be cheaper for me to fly you out here for a day ;-)
                      HS4, Insteon, Z-wave, USB-UIRT, Harmony Hubs, Google Hub/Chromecasts/Speakers, Foscam & Amcrest cameras, EZVIZ DB1 doorbell
                      Plugins: BLLAN, BLOccupied, BLUSBUIRT, Chromecast, Harmony Hub, Insteon, Jon00 Homeseer/Echo Skill Helper, Harmony Hub, Jon00 DB Charting, MediaController, NetCAM, PHLocation2, Pushover 3P, weatherXML, Z-wave

                      Comment


                        #12
                        My memory might be bad but it seems to me that all the neutrals (white) are tied together in the electrical panel on the neutral base bar.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          10 years ago when I started with Insteon, phase bridging was important. I had two devices. One plugged into an outlet on one phase and the other on the other phase. That was requires since there were no dual band devices at that time.

                          With the advent of the dual band devices, depending on where all the devices are located, you generall do not need to bridge the phases. But it is possible that the devices on one phase might not be located close enough to a dual band such that you might have comm problems.

                          If it were me, I'd create a diagram of what circuits are on each phase and where are the dual band switches located as well as what phase the PLM in operating on. That might give some insight into whether phase bridging is a consideration.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            There are some safety issues with sharing a neutral.

                            If you need to work on a circuit with a shared neutral, turning off the breaker will only interrupt power on the hot wire for that circuit. If there are any loads connected to power on the other circuit, the neutral will still be 'hot'. You would need to flip the breakers on both circuits to avoid a shock hazard. (There is also a chance, if both circuits are near capacity, that the neutral wire will be overloaded and present a fire hazard, especially in an older structure with marginal wiring.)
                            Mike____________________________________________________________ __________________
                            HS3 Pro Edition 3.0.0.548, NUC i3

                            HW: Stargate | NX8e | CAV6.6 | Squeezebox | PCS | WGL 800RF | RFXCOM | Vantage Pro | Green-Eye | Edgeport/8 | Way2Call | Ecobee3 | EtherRain | Ubiquiti

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Uncle Michael View Post
                              There are some safety issues with sharing a neutral.

                              If you need to work on a circuit with a shared neutral, turning off the breaker will only interrupt power on the hot wire for that circuit. If there are any loads connected to power on the other circuit, the neutral will still be 'hot'. You would need to flip the breakers on both circuits to avoid a shock hazard. (There is also a chance, if both circuits are near capacity, that the neutral wire will be overloaded and present a fire hazard, especially in an older structure with marginal wiring.)
                              Am I mistaken about the neutrals all being tied together??

                              Here is a diagram that I think supports my assertion.

                              Comment

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