Am I Going To Have A Problem With The PLM and all my KPLs?

[joegr]

AFAIK, the group per button thing is a feature of the way the PLM plugin for HomeSeer works. I wouldn't really expect the Insteon people to know about it. This is why I suggest that you might check into the ISY plugin instead. They may have done the same thing (group per button), but they may not have. If they didn't, it may be your solution.

The ISY is a box the plugs in between HomeSeer and the PLM.

[pgovotsos]

This is scary news to me as well. It sounds like in some ways Insteon is a downgrade of X-10. I, also, have bought, and begun installing, a lot of devices to migrate from an X-10 to Insteon only system

What I have now is 287 Leviton wired in in-line dimmer or relay modules and 52 Leviton Decora style transmitters (the ones with 1-4 rocker switches). Several of the wired in modules have the same X-10 code. I have every single (and I DO mean every single) load is home run to 6 panel boxes. I did this to facilitate a move like this so any replacement modules wouldn't have to deal with space constraints in the fixture.

Since the Insteon wired in modules have a higher wattage rating, I am using far fewer ones for the Insteon setup - about 63. I am using the same number of wall transmitters (52 KeyPadLincs) plus some additional ones and a few SwitchLincs.

No "switch" is directly connected to it's load. In the X-10 configuration, the transmitters send the X-10 on/off/dim/etc commands and the wired in modules receive them and turn on/off/dim/etc the load.

I have begun replacing the X-10 modules with Insteon wired in modules and the wall transmitters with KeyPadLincs.

If I'm understanding the above correctly, this is impossible with Insteon. The KeyPadLincs alone will need over 400 groups.

Is there a way to do this with Insteon (whether with HomeSeer, ISY, HouseLinc, or whatever) or is this simply beyond the capabilities of Insteon. If this is the case, SmartHome should really make this limitation MUCH more clearly stated. In the KeyPadLinc description, it doesn't say anything about need 6 or 8 groups per. They are really being subtle about this when people should be able to clearly learn this.

[jeanv]

So the question to you Mark is, is this a limitation of how the HomeSeer interfaces with the KPL or is it required that each KPL button have a dedicated group?

[mnsandler]

So the question to you Mark is, is this a limitation of how the HomeSeer interfaces with the KPL or is it required that each KPL button have a dedicated group?

part of the limitation is the plm plugin. I'll ask you to ask in the ISY forum about KPLs; i don't know how they are implemented with that controller.

[jeanv]

I posted in the ISY forum asking them if they had the same or any different limitations.

- Mark, so how many groups can the 2413S PLM store?
- Can the Plug-in be modified so that is does not create a group for every KPL button?

[mnsandler]

lets see what the isy forum has to say

the "insteon protocol" only supports 254 groups in any given interface

[pgovotsos]

Somewhere is there a reference that lists how many links / groups / scenes / whatever a device uses "out of the box" and how many get created when you do things like link several KeyPadLinc buttons & an InLineLinc?

One thing that confuses me about Insteon is there are references to things being stored in the PLM, in the devices, or HomeSeer only. How do you determine where things are stored? The reason I got a HomeTroller is so I can control everything centrally without having to go around playing with setup buttons & such.

How do you calculate the impact of what you configure? I noticed some devices (like FanLincs) add multiple links for standard AND RF. Is it necessary to do that? it seems like this can really limit the number of devices you can use on Insteon.

I'm sorry if I'm frothing at the mouth, but I just spent over $10,000 to install full Insteon systems in two houses and had no idea such ridiculously low limits were (apparently) built into the system.

I just called SmartHome Gold support and they said they never considered large installations when designing Insteon. What's the point of having 16 million device IDs if you can only have a handful on the network?

[upstatemike]

I am on the edge of having this same problem (I use the ISY and associated plugin). The problem is just the limited capacitiy of the PLM plus the fact that you need a group link for each button to control the LEDs. The likely solution for me will be to use multple PLMs by dividing my installation between the ISY and Mark's plugin. If the hub works out I might ultimately move everything to Mark's plugin but that is likely a ways off.

[jeanv]

I have posted my questions in the ISY forum. I am still not clear if the ISY need to create a group to be able to control if a button on a KPL lights up nor not. Does not the link to the KPL from the PLM suffice for this?

Also, I wanted to confirm that groups are NOT needed for non-KPL Insteon devices? Will I have a problem with SwitchLincs?

[jeanv]

Ok the answer back from the ISY forum is that the same exact problem will exist. They state that for a button to be a responder to the PLM it must be a group member. If it is not a group member then HomeSeer cannot control the button.

Mark,

- I wanted to confirm that groups are NOT needed for non-KPL Insteon devices? Do I need a group with the SwitchLincs?

- Also, what if I deleted the groups for the KPLs where I did not need all the button to be controllable from HomeSeer? Can I do that from your Plug-in? I as thinking, if HomeSeer did not need to control the lights on any of the 400 buttons, then no groups would be created right? Can I simply add the groups only for those button I do want to control?

- How do I determine how many groups are programmed right now into my PLM and what they do? (I assume that each button takes 1 group but that there are others too)

Thanks again for your help and patience Mark.. I am trying not to let this be a multi-thousand dollar mistake. I really should have not just assumed all would work when I started. I assumed, and now I am trying to make it work, at least in a more limited fashion.

[pgovotsos]

Spoke to HomeSeer, SmartHome & Universal Devices tech support. SmartHome was mostly useless. Beyond confirming the limits of the PLM, he also said the hub has the same device limits. He said Insteon wasn't designed for large installations and they had no plans to extend the protocol to do so. HomeSeer support was completely useless - they said they don't have a clue, you'll have to get support from the plug-in developer.

The Universal Devices tech support was very helpful. He explained how the count works. Each device adds 1 link per device & function. For example, a SwitchLinc is 2 links (1 for device & 1 for 1 button) while an 8 button KeyPadLinc is 9 links (1 for device & 8 for 8 buttons). Each scene adds 1 link to the PLM and each device in the scene.

He said a KeyPadLinc does not add a group / scene for each button - a group is only added if a button is a member of a group.

I'm not sure how far this moves us towards an answer, but it does seem to say that a KeyPadLinc doesn't add a bunch of groups just by being added to the system. I'm still not sure what that means for a large system. With 50 KPLs, you're looking at 450 links before making any groups etc. If a PLM only supports 254 links, it still sounds like I'm screwed.

[jeanv]

pgovotsos, I think you might have some things incorrect (or I have them wrong).

1. The PLM can support 1023 Links not 254
2. The PLM can support 254 Groups/Scenes
3. I was told in the ISY forum http://board.homeseer.com/showthread.php?t=157180 that in the KPL for the button to be controlled (either by the ISY or by Mark's Insteon Plug-in) that the button must be a member of a group/scene and that the links are not enough.

So for 50 KPLs you have the following (someone please correct me if I am wrong):

Each KPL
- 8 Links where the KPL Button is Controller and the PLM is a responder
- 8 Links where the KPL Button is Responder and the PLM is a Controller
- 2 Other Links that seem to be there for something
- 8 Groups/Scenes for HomeSeer to be able to control the button (this part I do not get since there is a link for this)

So for each KPL we have 18 Links and 8 Groups/Scenes

50 X 18 = 900 Links which is less than 1023 (not by much)
50 X 8 = 400 Groups/Scenes which is more than 254 (by alot)

So the limitation here is not the number of links (though it is close) it is the number of Groups/Scenes that are required.

Did I get all this correct Mark?

[mnsandler]

Spoke to HomeSeer, SmartHome & Universal Devices tech support. SmartHome was mostly useless. Beyond confirming the limits of the PLM, he also said the hub has the same device limits. He said Insteon wasn't designed for large installations and they had no plans to extend the protocol to do so. HomeSeer support was completely useless - they said they don't have a clue, you'll have to get support from the plug-in developer.

The Universal Devices tech support was very helpful. He explained how the count works. Each device adds 1 link per device & function. For example, a SwitchLinc is 2 links (1 for device & 1 for 1 button) while an 8 button KeyPadLinc is 9 links (1 for device & 8 for 8 buttons). Each scene adds 1 link to the PLM and each device in the scene.

He said a KeyPadLinc does not add a group / scene for each button - a group is only added if a button is a member of a group.

I'm not sure how far this moves us towards an answer, but it does seem to say that a KeyPadLinc doesn't add a bunch of groups just by being added to the system. I'm still not sure what that means for a large system. With 50 KPLs, you're looking at 450 links before making any groups etc. If a PLM only supports 254 links, it still sounds like I'm screwed.

links are different than groups. the plm supports over 1000 links

[mnsandler]

Ok the answer back from the ISY forum is that the same exact problem will exist. They state that for a button to be a responder to the PLM it must be a group member. If it is not a group member then HomeSeer cannot control the button.

Mark,

- I wanted to confirm that groups are NOT needed for non-KPL Insteon devices? Do I need a group with the SwitchLincs?

- Also, what if I deleted the groups for the KPLs where I did not need all the button to be controllable from HomeSeer? Can I do that from your Plug-in? I as thinking, if HomeSeer did not need to control the lights on any of the 400 buttons, then no groups would be created right? Can I simply add the groups only for those button I do want to control?

- How do I determine how many groups are programmed right now into my PLM and what they do? (I assume that each button takes 1 group but that there are others too)

Thanks again for your help and patience Mark.. I am trying not to let this be a multi-thousand dollar mistake. I really should have not just assumed all would work when I started. I assumed, and now I am trying to make it work, at least in a more limited fashion.

switchlinc, etc do not use groups to control the device, they are controlled by direct cmds not plm groups.

you can delete the links to kpl btns that you do not need to control via hs. status polling is still possible. the system will build the links and you can delete from there. This might be a possible solution.

the info on the config page displays the number of groups and number of links used. You referenced this info at the beginning of this thread.

[mnsandler]

pgovotsos, I think you might have some things incorrect (or I have them wrong).

1. The PLM can support 1023 Links not 254
2. The PLM can support 254 Groups/Scenes
3. I was told in the ISY forum http://board.homeseer.com/showthread.php?t=157180 that in the KPL for the button to be controlled (either by the ISY or by Mark's Insteon Plug-in) that the button must be a member of a group/scene and that the links are not enough.

So for 50 KPLs you have the following (someone please correct me if I am wrong):

Each KPL
- 8 Links where the KPL Button is Controller and the PLM is a responder
- 8 Links where the KPL Button is Responder and the PLM is a Controller
- 2 Other Links that seem to be there for something
- 8 Groups/Scenes for HomeSeer to be able to control the button (this part I do not get since there is a link for this)

So for each KPL we have 18 Links and 8 Groups/Scenes

50 X 18 = 900 Links which is less than 1023 (not by much)
50 X 8 = 400 Groups/Scenes which is more than 254 (by alot)

So the limitation here is not the number of links (though it is close) it is the number of Groups/Scenes that are required.

Did I get all this correct Mark?

this all looks right