Am I Going To Have A Problem With The PLM and all my KPLs?

[jeanv]

I am installing all 8 Button KPLs in each and every location with a switch. In the end there will be a total of:

32 - 8 Button Dimmer KPLs
17 - 8 Button Relay KPLs

(Many more Outletlincs, Syncrolincs, IOLincs, Remote Switches, etc...)

Am I going to have a problem with HomeSeer being able to control and see all the changes made by these devices on my 2413S PLM?

What got me worried was this message below from the Insteon Screen in HomeSeer:

You have 37 internal Insteon device(s) registered in the system, 0 external device(s), and 6 group(s).
These devices and groups currently consume 486 link database entries in your interface.*
You have 80 unused outbound link addresses out of 254 total available.

* Click the Display Interface Links button below to update this number.

There are no unregistered Insteon addresses in the network.

[mnsandler]

Yah, i think this is going to be a problem. Each 8 btn kpl consumes 8 group ids in the PLM (one group id for each btn so hs can control each kpl btn). The plm only has 254 group ids available to you.

This is not something that i can change.

[joegr]

It should be possible to use more than one PLM, but I assume that the plugin would have to get a lot more complicated to manage multiple PLMs and know which PLM to use for which device.

[jeanv]

Oh no!!!!!

So my entire home design and purchases are down the tubes?

Can you please educate me more on what the limitations of the hardware are?

So the PLM can only have 254 groups? Does that include the groups I create in HomeSeer to manage devices? What about these links, am I going to run out of those too?

So how do I size all this? How do I plan for how many KPLs I can have along with other Insteon devices?

I just made a huge and very costly mistake here

[pbibm]

Jean, the specs for the new insteon hub, which is in beta for Mark's software, can control 2016 links and 256 groups. They also claim more the 100 devices and 100 Rooms per hub.

Smarthome saw you coming and wants to sell you more.

I've ordered one, and a few others here have too. You may want to see how we fair in our first few weeks under Mark's guidance and switch to the hub. It has some great remote features as well, its much more than more insteon links.

Did I mention its in beta right now for Mark's plugin?

[jeanv]

I had seen the hub... I did not know it added capacity. So, right now I should NOT remove many of the 8-Button KPLs yet?

I never thought I would have a problem with installing all the 8 Button KPLs in my house.

Here is everything I purchased for my home... Will the hub allow all this to work under HomeSeer? Will HomeSeer or the Hub run out of address space?

I/O Linc - Qty 1
SynchroLinc - Qty 1
In-LineLinc Relay - Qty 2
MorningLinc - Qty 3
RemoteLinc 2 (Paddle) - Qty 3
OutletLinc Relay - Qty 6
In-LineLinc Dimmer [Dual Band] - Qty 10
KPL Relay [Dual Band] - 8 Button - Qty 17
KPL Dimmer - 8 Button - Qty 32

I have already bought all the hardware...

[pbibm]

Jean
I would say leave it installed. If you can use it manaully in the meantime, do so. Smarthome has a special support line for insteon, they are going to know for sure. Give them a call and tell them your list above. My guess is you're going to be fine after switching to a hub.

I'm sneaking up on installing my last 2 KPLs for a total of 5.. They are really handy, functional and reliable.. I love 'em.

[mnsandler]

254 is the total for kpl btns and plugin groups. 254 is a limitation of the insteon protocol not the memory in the PLM or hub.

the number of links the plm can support is just over 1000. I guess the hub has more memory, but is still limited to 254 groups. links are a combination of controller and responder links.

Part of the issue with the hs plugin is how the original developer implemented the KPLs (as mentioned above). In theory, this approach wasn't necessary but i never changed it based of the established user base and no one has every hit the limits; and there are users with well over 120 devices; just not 50 KPLs.

I would suggest swapping out some of the kpls for switchlincs.

I might be able to resolve some of this in HS3 but that is a ways off.

[pbibm]

Mark... Is it possible to have additional kpls that are managed through the hub and insteon and not seen in hs? Simple virtual circuits from buttons to switch(es). I have one case where I could live with that... If possible that might help in this case

[mnsandler]

Mark... Is it possible to have additional kpls that are managed through the hub and insteon and not seen in hs? Simple virtual circuits from buttons to switch(es). I have one case where I could live with that... If possible that might help in this case

from what i can tell from the ui in the Hub it isn't going to give you the full control of managing the KPL or any device like the plugin does; i don't think the hub is replacement for Houselinc2 (or Homeseer) but an extension. I'm not even sure if Houselinc2 supports the hub as a controller.

Devices can exist in the network and not be registered with the plugin; HS just won't be able to control or get status from them.

if two kpls are being used in a three way circuit maybe only one kpl needs to be registered.

[jeanv]

I am really upset I made such a huge mistake... I really thought I could just build by Insteon controlled house as big as I wanted without having to worry about things like the old X10 address limitation of 256 devices. Little did I know that Insteon really has a limit of 254 devices (and some devices like the PLM take up many addresses).

So what I need to know now since it does look like I am going to need to replace alot of brand new very expensive switches (since I am an idiot), what will work and what will not.

Lets start with what is the difference between a Group and a Link?

Right now an 8 button KPL in seems to register 18 links when there is nothing special assigned to it.. (see below)

Link #2 Button A/Load has local control reporting to HomeSeer
Link #4 Button B has local control reporting to HomeSeer
Link #5 Button C has local control reporting to HomeSeer
Link #6 Button D has local control reporting to HomeSeer
Link #7 Button E has local control reporting to HomeSeer
Link #8 Button F has local control reporting to HomeSeer
Link #9 Button G has local control reporting to HomeSeer
Link #10 Button H has local control reporting to HomeSeer
Link #1 Button A/Load is controlled by HomeSeer using RF PLM Group #0 (i2CS Registration Link) - Command: Off
Link #11 Button A/Load is controlled by HomeSeer using RF PLM Group #151 (Button Control Group) - Command: On
Link #3 Button A/Load is controlled by HomeSeer using RF PLM Group #254 (HomeSeer All Devices Group) - Command: On
Link #12 Button B is controlled by HomeSeer using RF PLM Group #152 (Button Control Group) - Command: On
Link #13 Button C is controlled by HomeSeer using RF PLM Group #153 (Button Control Group) - Command: On
Link #14 Button D is controlled by HomeSeer using RF PLM Group #154 (Button Control Group) - Command: On
Link #15 Button E is controlled by HomeSeer using RF PLM Group #155 (Button Control Group) - Command: On
Link #16 Button F is controlled by HomeSeer using RF PLM Group #156 (Button Control Group) - Command: On
Link #17 Button G is controlled by HomeSeer using RF PLM Group #157 (Button Control Group) - Command: On
Link #18 Button H is controlled by HomeSeer using RF PLM Group #158 (Button Control Group) - Command: On

How many resources does this use up on the PLM?

If I were to use a SwitchLinc, how much does that use up?

My goal is for HomeSeer to see the status of everything and to be able to control everything.

The amount of labor in installing these things was huge and the cost was very high. This really sucks I sooo screwed up.

[mnsandler]

Jean,

groups use links in both the plm and responder devices.

new switchlincs take about 3 links with the plugin. Every device is going to take at least 1 for status, 1 for control, and i2cs take 1 for registration.

KPLs are the only device that take unique group links to control. Other devices don't have this requirement.

Maybe homeseer isn't the sw for you. My guess is Houselinc2 or some other platform handles KPLs differently and you won't hit the link limit or group limit.

I would suggest you visit the smarthome forum and do a little research on houselinc2 and other insteon platforms.

[joegr]

What about the ISY plugin for HomeSeer?
Does it work with the ISY994? It says

• Supports 1,024 Devices/ Scenes and controls up to 1,000 Programs

[jeanv]

Mark I am confused... I thought the limit was part of the Insteon protocol itself and not HomeSeer. If each 8 Button KPL registers each button as a group and the PLM can only hold 254 groups then is that not the limit of Insteon regardless of if I use HomeSeer, ISY, HouseLinc etc?

I love HomeSeer and I made all my automation plans around it. If another Insteon Controller that interfaces with HomeSeer gets rid of the limits then that is an option (I am thinking of the ISY here).

My whole goal all along was to have HomeSeer be the central control of all my automation where Isteon was a huge (but not the only) part of it.

Here are my questions (thanks for the help here):

1. Does each KPL take up 8 groups?
2. Does the PLM only store 254 Groups?
3. Are there any groups consumed by SwitchLincs, OutletLincs, InlineLincs?

[jeanv]

Ok, now I am REALLY confused. I called the Insteon Gold line as was suggested in this thread. The tech told me he was unaware of the KPL creating a group for each button. He said it does create a link as a controller and as a responder to the PLM but that those are links.

So each KPL would have about 18 links and the PLM could store 1023 links. So that he could not understand why there is a limit here.

(Qty 50) x ([8 Button KPL] 18 links per KPL) = 900 links

I do understand the part where each button is a group (he did not understand that either)