Problems with new UPB setup - poor communications??

[JKaplan]

Hi Folks-

I just got my UPB 'starter kit' and installed one switch. It's not working properly.

The PIM is an SA, version 4.15. I'm running UPStart on the same computer as HS, which is controlling a large number of X-10 devices successfully from the same outlet the SA PIM is plugged in to.

I replaced one Lightolier X-10 dimmer switch with one SA US11-30 1000W Single Dimming Transceiver. The location is about 40 feet from the panel, and the PIM is about 30 feet from the panel.

The UPS switch properly controls the load, and enters setup mode.

It appears to me that communications are very poor. When I run the UPB diagnostics Signal and Noise meters, I get:

Noise Count per sample: 10
Total noise energy: 138
Average noise energy: 14
Noise level: Severe

When I run the 'add device' setup wizard in UPStart, I get many timeouts and retries. Sometimes it gets further than others but it has never successfully added this device. I increased the number of retries to 16, the max allowed. It typically shows noise at the switch at 0, signal at the PIM at 25, and signal at the switch at 15.

Attached is a sample log of 'details' for the add device wizard.

My X-10 switches, including the one at that location, are moderately reliable - and controled from the same location as the UPB switch.

I don't know what all these number indicate - any advice from a UPB expert would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Jerry

[Rupp]

Your not alone. Keep in mind that UPB is still powerline based so while it's not as flaky as X10 it's still going to suffer from the same "kinds" of problems and interference. While most haven't mentioned it, UPB needs a coupler/repeater as well. So like X10 no UPB installation is complete with the coupler/repeater.

See this thread:
http://board.homeseer.com/showthread.php?t=107364

[jasv]

I would guess not but...

I would guess not but I have an existing X10 coupler/repeater. I doubt it would repeat the UPS signals since they are a different frequency. Is there any chance that my coupler would also work for UPB?

[Rupp]

No it will not work with UPB but is also should hinder it either.

[Oman]

I have had problems having the X10 PIM in the same outlet as the UPB PIM. Moving them to different outlets even on the same leg seemed to help.

Hi Folks-

I just got my UPB 'starter kit' and installed one switch. It's not working properly.

The PIM is an SA, version 4.15. I'm running UPStart on the same computer as HS, which is controlling a large number of X-10 devices successfully from the same outlet the SA PIM is plugged in to.

I replaced one Lightolier X-10 dimmer switch with one SA US11-30 1000W Single Dimming Transceiver. The location is about 40 feet from the panel, and the PIM is about 30 feet from the panel.

The UPS switch properly controls the load, and enters setup mode.

It appears to me that communications are very poor. When I run the UPB diagnostics Signal and Noise meters, I get:

Noise Count per sample: 10
Total noise energy: 138
Average noise energy: 14
Noise level: Severe

When I run the 'add device' setup wizard in UPStart, I get many timeouts and retries. Sometimes it gets further than others but it has never successfully added this device. I increased the number of retries to 16, the max allowed. It typically shows noise at the switch at 0, signal at the PIM at 25, and signal at the switch at 15.

Attached is a sample log of 'details' for the add device wizard.

My X-10 switches, including the one at that location, are moderately reliable - and controled from the same location as the UPB switch.

I don't know what all these number indicate - any advice from a UPB expert would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Jerry

[JKaplan]

Update: Problem solved.

OK, I move the PIM to another outlet, further from my 'command center' (HS server, etc.), and sure enough, all noise went away and everything is working perfectly.

Noise is 0; signals running around 50.

Thanks for the advice!

Jerry

PS - I suppose this raises the question as to whether my X-10 PIM, which seems to be working, is also encountering noise on the circuit (but I just can't see it).

[Oman]

That's good news. Even though UPB and X10 are both PLC devices, the spike voltage, frequency, and placement on the AC waveform are different. So chances are the X10 PIM is being affected but likely to a different degree than the UPB one.

Now if we can just figure out what DC's problem with UPB turns out to be we'll be in good shape.

OK, I move the PIM to another outlet, further from my 'command center' (HS server, etc.), and sure enough, all noise went away and everything is working perfectly.

Noise is 0; signals running around 50.

Thanks for the advice!

Jerry

PS - I suppose this raises the question as to whether my X-10 PIM, which seems to be working, is also encountering noise on the circuit (but I just can't see it).

[JKaplan]

More on X-10 PIM and UPB PIM interference

FYI, I just ran a simple test, and found that these two PIMS definitely interfere with each other.

Plugging the X-10 PIM into the same outlet as the UPB PIM causes the X-10 PIM it to fail. The flashing X-10 TX light on my Homevision controller doesn't flash in the same pattern - a long series of fast flashes - and it can't control any devices.

Pluging the X-10 PIM back in to a separate outlet and everything returns to normal.

I don't know if these outlets are on the same curcuit, I kind of doubt it.

[rocco]

Jerry, which type of X10 interface is it?

[DC]

I have a TI103 plugged into the same circuit as the UPB PIM. Unplugging the TI103 had no effect on UPB.

However, I have two APC 1500 UPSs in the room. When I unplug them, my UPB signal gets measurably stronger. UPStart can then communicate with one device that it cannot communicate with when the UPSs are plugged in, and the signal strength is stronger to/from all devices. So, it's definitely not accurate to say that UPB is not subject to interference (noise or signal degradation) by other devices.

Nothing I've done so far will allow the UPB signal to reach my shop. X10 signals are about 80% reliable to the shop but UPB won't control an appliance module in the shop. It is on a separate meter from my house but the same (dedicated) utility company transformer.

I had high hopes for UPB but those hopes are fading fast. I am going to try to put a UPB phase coupler in each of my electrical panels but if that doesn't work, I guess I'm out of luck. I may try a different brand of PIM but Martin said that shouldn't make a difference.

[Oman]

At least we are getting somewhere. Anything that communicates on the powerline can have its signal attenuated, however UPB seems to have less of a problem than X10 does which most equipment.

All of the PIMs are built based on the PCS spec. There could be a difference in the grade of components used between one mfgr and another.

Without knowing the layout of your location, is it possible to move the PIM to another leg of the power feed?

PCS is using UPB in some factory settings and they have a special repeater for this purpose. Smart repeating is built into the UPB protocol but I have not seen a repeater unit for home use.

Since you are having such a problem maybe I can get PCS to send you a repeater to try :>

I have a TI103 plugged into the same circuit as the UPB PIM. Unplugging the TI103 had no effect on UPB.

However, I have two APC 1500 UPSs in the room. When I unplug them, my UPB signal gets measurably stronger. UPStart can then communicate with one device that it cannot communicate with when the UPSs are plugged in, and the signal strength is stronger to/from all devices. So, it's definitely not accurate to say that UPB is not subject to interference (noise or signal degradation) by other devices.

Nothing I've done so far will allow the UPB signal to reach my shop. X10 signals are about 80% reliable to the shop but UPB won't control an appliance module in the shop. It is on a separate meter from my house but the same (dedicated) utility company transformer.

I had high hopes for UPB but those hopes are fading fast. I am going to try to put a UPB phase coupler in each of my electrical panels but if that doesn't work, I guess I'm out of luck. I may try a different brand of PIM but Martin said that shouldn't make a difference.

[JKaplan]

Answers to questions

Rocco -

My X-10 interface is an X-10 Pro PSC05 Two Way PIM.

FYI to all, especially DC: The wall outlet that I originally had trouble communicating through with the UPB PIM ALSO has an APC UPS plugged into it. I moved the PIM to another circuit - no noise or problems at all.

My guess (expert as I am after 12 hours of UPB use) is that something in your house is interfering. If I were you, I would send my wife to the movies, then turn off each circuit one at a time and check for noise/signal strength. The offender should pop right out...

Jerry

[DC]

... then turn off each circuit one at a time and check for noise/signal strength.

I'll probably try that but that defeats about 90% of the reason I was trying UPB -- to eliminate those kinds of problems. So far, X10 works better for me than UPB so there is little reason to pay $40 for a lamp module vs $4.

Since you are having such a problem maybe I can get PCS to send you a repeater to try :>

Oman, send it on! Seriously, if you can get me one, even a beta test, I think my installation would be a good place to try it. On my house I have one meter that feeds two main breaker panels. Those two main panels feed 4 sub-panels inside the house. I also have a separate meter on my shop that feeds a main panel which feeds two sub-panels. I also have a small sub-panel in my yard that feeds a bunch of landscape stuff. The house and shop meters are fed from the same utility company transformer. It's about 80 to 100 feet from the house and shop meters (respectively) and I'm the only one on it. X10 reaches everything on my property but not with 100% reliability. I would guess about 90% in the house and 80% everywhere else. In fact, in most events I send three X10 commands 10 seconds apart just to increase the chances that one will get through. I had hopes that UPB would raise that to 99%+ as advertised but, so far, I can't get a signal to my shop at all and just getting a signal upstairs to a spare bedroom is hit or miss. If a repeater works, I'll be glad to pay for it or to offer my "testimonial" about how it fixed my problem and made UPB work for me.

[Oman]

Wow, that is quite a bit of wire! It sounds like a real testimonial for PCS if we can get it working. That fact that X10 works at all surpises the heck out of me.

Do you have a bunch of X10 repeaters? Can you get the PIM on a leg from the main breaker? Nothing at all working makes sense to me but X10 and not UPB is just plain super-strange.

I'll probably try that but that defeats about 90% of the reason I was trying UPB -- to eliminate those kinds of problems. So far, X10 works better for me than UPB so there is little reason to pay $40 for a lamp module vs $4.


Oman, send it on! Seriously, if you can get me one, even a beta test, I think my installation would be a good place to try it. On my house I have one meter that feeds two main breaker panels. Those two main panels feed 4 sub-panels inside the house. I also have a separate meter on my shop that feeds a main panel which feeds two sub-panels. I also have a small sub-panel in my yard that feeds a bunch of landscape stuff. The house and shop meters are fed from the same utility company transformer. It's about 80 to 100 feet from the house and shop meters (respectively) and I'm the only one on it. X10 reaches everything on my property but not with 100% reliability. I would guess about 90% in the house and 80% everywhere else. In fact, in most events I send three X10 commands 10 seconds apart just to increase the chances that one will get through. I had hopes that UPB would raise that to 99%+ as advertised but, so far, I can't get a signal to my shop at all and just getting a signal upstairs to a spare bedroom is hit or miss. If a repeater works, I'll be glad to pay for it or to offer my "testimonial" about how it fixed my problem and made UPB work for me.

[DC]

I have one Leviton 6201 Coupler/Repeater in a branch panel inside. I have several X10 filters on TVs and UPSs but nothing else special.

Can you get the PIM on a leg from the main breaker?

There is no one main breaker. There is one 200 AMP breaker in one main panel that feeds the upstairs branch panel. In the other main panel there are only three breakers each feeding a branch panel inside. I put the phase coupler in that panel today on it's own breaker. It only accomodates four double-pole breakers so I had one space open and happened to have a 20A double pole breaker so I put it in and hooked up the coupler to it. It didn't work any better than when I had the coupler in a branch panel yesterday. Without the coupler, I could not get signals from one phase to the other regardless of how close the device and the PIM were. With the coupler I can get weak signals to the other phase.

I've ordered three more couplers from Automated Outlet. I will try putting one in each branch panel also. This is something Simply Automated recommended trying.

But I would definitely like try a PCS repeater if possible. I can't find one in anybody's catalog. Are they not officially on the market yet?