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UPB - it's not looking good...

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    UPB - it's not looking good...

    For those of you following my saga (Everything fine on one phase; nothing on other phase even with a coupler.) ...

    I called in the marines tonight. The town wizard came over with his oscilloscope. This is the guy that Lockheed calls when one of it's satellites goes haywire (really). Not to mention that he's an HA freak too.

    We got an engineer from PCS on the phone. We opened up several of my panels and performed all sorts of sophisticated tests.

    I won't bore you with the test configurations, but the conclusion is that the PIM works on one of my phases, but not on the other. In other words, if the PIM is on phase A, it can communicate perfectly with all devices on phase A. With no couplers, 1 coupler, or 2 couplers installed, that signal is so poor on phase B that communication with devices on that phase is impossible. If the PIM is on phase B, it can communicate with devices that are very local to it (like plugged right into it), but as far away as the main panel (about 200-300') the signal is so degraded and noisy that it is useless.

    Why might this be the case? My expert speculates that either there is a piece of equipment on one of the phases that is somehow destroying the signal; or, perhaps the step-down transformer itself is destroying the signal. Note that the evil equipment, if any, could be in my house or any of my neighbors houses, as we all share the same phase(s). Note also that this would have to be a 110V device. Personally, I think this is very unlikely and probably it's the transformer itself.

    On the oscilloscope trace, the expert notes that there is a deformation of the sine wave on the bad phase only, right about where the UPB signals are supposed to go. On the other (good) phase, you can clearly see the UPB signals, bits and all.

    So what's a mother to do?

    Adding another PIM on the bad phase won't work. Couplers don't work. A repeater might work if it drove a strong enough signal, but according to PCS, they don't have such a thing (at least for split phase).

    Unless someone else has another idea, I must reluctantly reach the conclusion that UPB isn't sufficiently bulletproof to work reliably on all installations, and I'm one of the unlucky ones.

    I have only 2 things to try:

    1. Call PG&E (local power company) and complain that I'm not getting clean enough power. There's a small chance they might listen and do something about it, but since all electrical devices are working fine, I doubt they will care.

    2. Call PCS and/or SA and see if they might want to send in their own experts (as opposed to consulting by phone) to study what's happening here and see if they can find a workaround. It can't be good for UPB acceptance to have it fail for a visible early adopter like me. (At least, that's my argument.)

    HELP!

    Jerry

    #2

    Call PG&E (local power company) and complain that I'm not getting clean enough power. There's a small chance they might listen and do something about it, but since all electrical devices are working fine, I doubt they will care.
    Actually, you could tell them that all electrical devices are NOT working fine, couldn't you? Your UPB switches are electrical devices.

    But, it sure sounds like PCS DOES need to develop a noise filter after all.

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      #3
      DC -

      I don't think I would characterize this as a noise problem. The issue seems to be that for some reason, one of my phases simply won't support the UPB signal - it's incredibly weak and poorly defined if you see it on the scope, particularly compared to the other phase. My consulting expert thinks this is related to a 'deformation' he sees of the waveform on that phase.

      Most likely, if the signal were a lot stronger, this wouldn't be a problem. But there doesn't seem to be any amplifers or repeaters available for UPB.

      Anyway, I found someone other than a CS rep at PG&E and left a voicemail begging for help. Let's see what happens.

      I also left a message for the sales manager at PCS who graciously set me up with one of their engineers. Perhaps he could loan me a PCS PIM and I can see if that behaves differently - it's worth a try.

      Jerry

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        #4
        Jerry,

        How many phases do you have in your house? PCS does make a 3 phose coupler/repeater (yes, repeater).
        Martin Custer

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          #5
          Hi Martin -

          I have standard "split phase" residential power (often improperly called 2 phase). PCS tells me that the 3-phase repeater won't work here.

          An update: I've also been working with Brad at SA, who has been very helpful. He's sending me some special equipment to test in my installation, and says he will actually send someone over here if necessary to diagnose my situation if they can't do it remotely. (They're in southern CA, I'm in northern CA.)

          To my surprise, PG&E has also been very responsive. They sent a field person over here today, but he's not really the right guy, so he's referred me to their power conditioning expert, who is supposed to call me later today or tomorrow.

          I still have a box of your stuff sitting here, hopefully I'll get this operational now that so many people are working with me on it!

          Jerry

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            #6
            Its doesn't seem that strange to me after I lived through years of debugging X-10. UPB workd different from X-10. X-10 has a 125kHz carrier that can get filtered out by devices. I must have at least 10 filters in my house. UPB works with large pulses, and the timing of these pulses.

            O.K. The good news and the bad news. Since a pulse is a wideband signal if taken apart, its more immune to filtering since if part of it survives, it still will get through. This means, with X-10, its easy to build a filter, because X-10 is narrowband. The bad news, with UPB its hard to build a filter, because its wideband.

            So, as you have discovered, UPB is not invincible, but you have a clue, you know which phase the problem device is on. I really don't believe its a power transformer causing the problem.

            So, you need to debug it. Turn off ALL breakers on the bad phase, then just turn on one breaker that has a UBP switch on that circuit. Does it work? If not, turn off that breaker and turn on another. Try that.

            The breakers go in twos, so the bad phase is every other breaker.

            If you don't have any luck with this, it might be something in your box. Do you have a surge supressor? GFI breakers? AFCI breakers? One of those items might be sucking the signal.

            Keep us posted, but I'm 99.99% sure its something in your house. And how you describe it, its something close to the box.

            Keep in mind, powerline signals travel like water in a hose, and a problem device is like a kink in the hose. Also note, devices before the kink still get good signal (water) its only after the kink that the signal slows. That means if the ENTIRE phase is weak, the problem is likely very close to the box.

            Comment


              #7

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                #8
                Originally posted by anogee
                Keep in mind, powerline signals travel like water in a hose, and a problem device is like a kink in the hose. Also note, devices before the kink still get good signal (water) its only after the kink that the signal slows. That means if the ENTIRE phase is weak, the problem is likely very close to the box.
                This is a good analogy, anogee.

                The problem may well be the "kink", but it may also be a "hole" in the hose. Pressure may be ok at the source, but can be low everywhere else, even if the "hole" is a good distance away.

                The "hole" could be a large, capacitive load on the phase, that would absorb the energy from the UPB pulse. It would also tend to distort the AC sine wave.

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                  #9

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                    #10
                    Noise / signal suck

                    The "hole" could be a large, capacitive load on the phase, that would absorb the energy from the UPB pulse. It would also tend to distort the AC sine wave.
                    Rocco,
                    In the x10 world there were things we knew may be a noise or signal suck problem. I have some UPB plug in modules that are showing low signal (around 5) and high noise (around 7) in plugs that work perfectly with no noise in the X10 world. What should I be looking for as far as a "hole".

                    BTW because of UPB's design the modules still seem to work without fail but the noise has me worried because everywhere else the noise is zero and the signal is excellent.
                    James

                    Running HS 3 on Win10 .

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                      #11
                      My money is on a "bad" utility transformer (or bad connection, etc).

                      You could find out by sneaking over to your neighbor's house and throwing the main breaker, then running your test again.

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                        #12
                        Attached Files

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                          #13

                          (DC - Halloween is coming, perhaps I can get away with using a garden clipper to remove all my neighbors power taps that night!)

                          You would only do that once!

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                            #14
                            Quick update:

                            PG&E completed a series of tests taking various pieces of equipment offline while I took readings, and concluded that it's not their problem. I must say I'm surprised they've been so responsive. I'd be suspicious of their conclusion, but I happen to agree with them.

                            I rigged up a portable 'test kit' for UPB signals, then contacted several of my neighbors to ask permission to run tests at their houses, thereby cementing my reputation as neighborhood kook. (If it weren't for the fact that this board is full of similar people, I wouldn't have had the nerve.)

                            Most of them agreed, except one who, shall we say, enjoys conflict with their neighbors. Of course the problem is originating from their house.

                            The results were very interesting, and I'm now closing in on the offending equipment.

                            More to come...

                            Jerry

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                              #15
                              House wiring

                              I am curious as to the wiring in your home.

                              What is the age of the home?
                              Are your devices plug spliced or is each receptacle pig-tailed?
                              Central air and heat?

                              Comment

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