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  #41  
Old July 17th, 2017, 11:43 AM
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...but I thought the point of HS is cloud independence - at least on the core functionality.

Robert
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  #42  
Old July 17th, 2017, 12:05 PM
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My way of looking at that is "There is something for everyone".
I want to use my phone for quick things only - and a quick vpn connect allows for that, meaning I don't have to open ports or do MyHS.
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  #43  
Old July 17th, 2017, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by langenet View Post
...but I thought the point of HS is cloud independence - at least on the core functionality.

Robert
this!!! so much this!!! the main advantage for me is that HS3 is on my own network and stays that way, internal functions continue to operate if the internet is down. we might lose myHS from time to time but the internal lan parts still work and we can move to direct IP access.
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  #44  
Old July 17th, 2017, 12:40 PM
waynehead99 waynehead99 is online now
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I do think it interesting that a discussion of HS4 (which seems to come up every few months), gets turned into... fix the bugs for HS3. It shows from the forums perspective where everyone truly feels HS should be focused on. Bugzilla also comes up all the time, yet when it does... HS remains completely silent, like a person in serious debt... thinking if they ignore it, it will just go away.

I personally don't see any issues with the UI (except it is click happy, but I understand why), and with a product of this scale, you can't please everyone. Also, I have yet to see a "pretty" UI that is just for admin purposes... if you are using the GUI for control, you are doing something wrong in my eyes (but this is just my opinion).

Bugs are the greatest concern here, and with the recent changes to HSTouch to be added to the core application and removed from the Plugin List, all they did was take the current bugs and move them. The old issues are still there prior to the move.

HS's focus from a development standpoint should NOT be HS4, but should be working on the current product and fixing the bugs that have had multiple birthdays. I won't open bugs in bugzilla just because I know they go nowhere.

HS3 is a great product still, and as others have stated prior, we don't know the development cycle or the resource constraints on a small company like HS. But, I have always felt that HS develops to about 90 percent fixed and then moves on. HSTouch (including the designer software) and the zwave plugin are great examples of this.
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  #45  
Old July 17th, 2017, 01:21 PM
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All of us on this forum are existing customers. And whether we like it or not, we are not generating much new business for HomeSeer. Fixing bugs will not generate much new revenue for Homeseer. They need new products to sell or they won't survive. That is why they are continually adding new HS devices to their store. The big players are trying to get their act together. If the big guys get it right, we won't care about whether the bugs are fixed, we will all be using something else! I'd like to see HS thrive!

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  #46  
Old July 17th, 2017, 01:47 PM
sirmeili sirmeili is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Q View Post
All of us on this forum are existing customers. And whether we like it or not, we are not generating much new business for HomeSeer. Fixing bugs will not generate much new revenue for Homeseer. They need new products to sell or they won't survive. That is why they are continually adding new HS devices to their store. The big players are trying to get their act together. If the big guys get it right, we won't care about whether the bugs are fixed, we will all be using something else! I'd like to see HS thrive!

Steve Q


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While I see your point. Those bugs will affect new users as well and with a 30 day free trial, it may deter people from purchasing the system if they run into those bugs.
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  #47  
Old July 17th, 2017, 02:28 PM
waynehead99 waynehead99 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Q View Post
All of us on this forum are existing customers. And whether we like it or not, we are not generating much new business for HomeSeer. Fixing bugs will not generate much new revenue for Homeseer. They need new products to sell or they won't survive. That is why they are continually adding new HS devices to their store. The big players are trying to get their act together. If the big guys get it right, we won't care about whether the bugs are fixed, we will all be using something else! I'd like to see HS thrive!

Steve Q


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This is a very valid point here. I know to some its not a great idea, but I have always been ok with the idea of yearly subscription fees to help HS maintain. I have thought the same about HS and know that once they have my money, they don't get much revenue from me. But if I was paying them yearly, my expectations would go much higher than they are now, and they probably know this with the typical customer and know they can't handle the kinda load that would put on them, so they don't do it.

I am all about supporting a company that I think does a good job and provides a good services. I pushed HS to at least 3 other people within the past 6 months, all of which have purchased it, including massive purchases of switches. I will continue to support them since I don't see other options as of late that compare, but the ecosystem we call HA is changing, and with that HS needs to change some of their practices. Putting out another application I don't think is the answer if they can't get the foundation under control.
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  #48  
Old July 17th, 2017, 04:48 PM
sirmeili sirmeili is offline
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Originally Posted by waynehead99 View Post
This is a very valid point here. I know to some its not a great idea, but I have always been ok with the idea of yearly subscription fees to help HS maintain. I have thought the same about HS and know that once they have my money, they don't get much revenue from me. But if I was paying them yearly, my expectations would go much higher than they are now, and they probably know this with the typical customer and know they can't handle the kinda load that would put on them, so they don't do it.

I am all about supporting a company that I think does a good job and provides a good services. I pushed HS to at least 3 other people within the past 6 months, all of which have purchased it, including massive purchases of switches. I will continue to support them since I don't see other options as of late that compare, but the ecosystem we call HA is changing, and with that HS needs to change some of their practices. Putting out another application I don't think is the answer if they can't get the foundation under control.

Hey, if HST wants to charge a yearly fee (Reasonable) and use the money to pay for one or more developer, think that would work as long as:

1) if you stop paying, you merely lose access to new versions and not to what you have installed (This would mean a lower up front cost IMHO). I'm not a fan of subscription software like that (like Adobe Creative Cloud).

2) There are some of us (hint hint) that might be interested in being one of those developers that is financed by the yearly fee
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  #49  
Old July 17th, 2017, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by sirmeili View Post
2) There are some of us (hint hint) that might be interested in being one of those developers that is financed by the yearly fee

You clever coders slay me! I need to clone my self a few dozen times so I can learn everything I want to learn.
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There is no rhyme or reason to the anarchy a defective Z-Wave device can cause
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  #50  
Old July 17th, 2017, 06:28 PM
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jumper4000 jumper4000 is offline
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Guys, it's just time for a new major version with massive underlying changes/features, and a whole brand new interface. Some of you say, it's good enough, so let's not change anything; just fix bugs. I don't think that's anywhere near good enough.

iPhone 3 was good enough too, but Apple keeps releasing new versions that go beyond our imagination. HS needs to do that too. Every other company (particularly a software company) that wants to survive, releases major versions every year or two (I work for one). There's no reason for HomeSeer to go 5 years without even mentioning a new version.

Also, unlike some of you, I think the GUI is extremely important, and the HS3 GUI must be one of the ugliest, slowest, clunkiest, least functional UIs I have ever seen in the past 10 years. For example, why does a thermostat need to take up a half a page?? Maybe there should be a simple page, with all the essentials, and an advanced page that looks like the current GUI... Luckily, most things in our house are automated, but if I ever showed the interface to my wife and told her this is how she needs to control everything in our house, she'd have a heart attack (and most likely divorce me).
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  #51  
Old July 17th, 2017, 07:57 PM
sonypoolplr sonypoolplr is offline
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Originally Posted by jumper4000 View Post
Guys, it's just time for a new major version with massive underlying changes/features, and a whole brand new interface. Some of you say, it's good enough, so let's not change anything; just fix bugs. I don't think that's anywhere near good enough.

iPhone 3 was good enough too, but Apple keeps releasing new versions that go beyond our imagination. HS needs to do that too. Every other company (particularly a software company) that wants to survive, releases major versions every year or two (I work for one). There's no reason for HomeSeer to go 5 years without even mentioning a new version.

Also, unlike some of you, I think the GUI is extremely important, and the HS3 GUI must be one of the ugliest, slowest, clunkiest, least functional UIs I have ever seen in the past 10 years. For example, why does a thermostat need to take up a half a page?? Maybe there should be a simple page, with all the essentials, and an advanced page that looks like the current GUI... Luckily, most things in our house are automated, but if I ever showed the interface to my wife and told her this is how she needs to control everything in our house, she'd have a heart attack (and most likely divorce me).
Apple keeps releasing new versions of their phone that barely keep up with Samsung. And they keep charging hundreds for these great advances. Do you want HST to release a new version every 1-2 years ans charge users hundreds to upgrade to? I think the HS GUI is just there to program what we want HS to do, not to wow people when they look at it. I have my touchscreens with my scenes to do that. My wife doesn't want to see the HS system, she wants the stuff to work, as I do too. Looks are secondary to me to performance. So if the GUI stays the way it is, and the lights and the outlets and the TV controls, etc, work like they should, than I am happy. And so is my family.
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  #52  
Old July 17th, 2017, 08:02 PM
waynehead99 waynehead99 is online now
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Originally Posted by sonypoolplr View Post
Apple keeps releasing new versions of their phone that barely keep up with Samsung. And they keep charging hundreds for these great advances. Do you want HST to release a new version every 1-2 years ans charge users hundreds to upgrade to? I think the HS GUI is just there to program what we want HS to do, not to wow people when they look at it. I have my touchscreens with my scenes to do that. My wife doesn't want to see the HS system, she wants the stuff to work, as I do too. Looks are secondary to me to performance. So if the GUI stays the way it is, and the lights and the outlets and the TV controls, etc, work like they should, than I am happy. And so is my family.


Agreed, the wow factor when people come to my house isn't a GUI, it's the fact that the house is alive.

I'm actually trying to get away from touch panels around the house. Most things are automated to the point that if I need to manually control, I fix it. And have found myself and the rest in the house not using the touch pads anymore.
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  #53  
Old July 17th, 2017, 08:17 PM
sonypoolplr sonypoolplr is offline
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Originally Posted by waynehead99 View Post
Agreed, the wow factor when people come to my house isn't a GUI, it's the fact that the house is alive.

I'm actually trying to get away from touch panels around the house. Most things are automated to the point that if I need to manually control, I fix it. And have found myself and the rest in the house not using the touch pads anymore.
Me too. The only time we use the touchscreens is to play music, watch a movie, or override something that is automated.
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  #54  
Old July 17th, 2017, 09:11 PM
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jumper4000 jumper4000 is offline
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Originally Posted by sonypoolplr View Post
Apple keeps releasing new versions of their phone that barely keep up with Samsung. And they keep charging hundreds for these great advances. Do you want HST to release a new version every 1-2 years ans charge users hundreds to upgrade to? I think the HS GUI is just there to program what we want HS to do, not to wow people when they look at it. I have my touchscreens with my scenes to do that. My wife doesn't want to see the HS system, she wants the stuff to work, as I do too. Looks are secondary to me to performance. So if the GUI stays the way it is, and the lights and the outlets and the TV controls, etc, work like they should, than I am happy. And so is my family.
If it was a major version and it had an adequate number of valuable features added to it (like iPhone does), I wouldn't mind one bit paying the upgrade price to get those features. Also, it would be a choice. If someone's happy with what they have, they can skip paying for the next major version, and upgrade in 3 or 4 years if they wanted to. But with HS, we have no choice. They simply don't release new major versions and it doesn't look like they have any plans to do so.

The GUI shouldn't just be there for programming and creating Events. A beautiful, responsive, clean, functional UI is essential to a home automation system. You cannot expect EVERYTHING to be automated. For example, I have 3 gates at my house, multiple door locks, 3 central AC units for different parts of the house, at least 50 switches/dimmers, multiple fireplace controllers, shade controllers, pool controller, irrigation controllers, at least 12 TVs, 8 cameras, alarm, and countless other devices. You can't expect everything to just work magically and automatically in every situation. Manual control through a beautiful UI is absolutely essential, and HS touch is just not good enough. I have yet to see a perfectly functional, clean, and professional looking UI created with HS Touch. I see a lot of glowing colorful looking screens with a few huge buttons, but nothing to write home about. But you know, I'm not surprised!! Most of us are not professional UI designers... By far, the best current UI for HS3 is ImperiHome, and that has it's own share of problems too. In my opinion, HomeWave (a Vera app) was far superior to ImperiHome, but on HomeSeer we hardly have any options.

Overall, I'm happy with HS3 (enormously happier than I was with Vera), and I'm not planning to leave soon, but every now and then, I do look out for other products that could be better and on a faster road map.
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  #55  
Old July 17th, 2017, 09:13 PM
rmorton27 rmorton27 is offline
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Considering that I have just migrated to HS3 and it was a taxing chore though I am now happy with the result, I can't begin to stomach the idea of HS4. The GUI complaints don't resonate much with me either as unless I'm knee deep in a project I don't use the HS3 interface at all. Either HS3 just does it, or I use my asp pages and now with the Echo, I find myself using it more and more.
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  #56  
Old July 17th, 2017, 09:20 PM
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Uncle Michael Uncle Michael is offline
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Originally Posted by jumper4000 View Post
iPhone 3 was good enough too, but Apple keeps releasing new versions that go beyond our imagination. HS needs to do that too. Every other company (particularly a software company) that wants to survive, releases major versions every year or two (I work for one). There's no reason for HomeSeer to go 5 years without even mentioning a new version.
Technologically, HA is much more in the realm of the Apple Newton than the iPhone. There is a great deal of work yet to be done before the interface is the defining feature. (As evidence, you only need to list the many slick designs that have made no significant impact, with most meeting an early demise.)

The lack of meaningful competition to HST is telling. Given the current state of the art, the market is VERY small for HA, and it's not for lack of a "modern" interface. HA just doesn't work reliably enough to satisfy anyone but a hobbyist.

Until HA encompasses a broad range of capabilities in a robust enough package to entice millions of people to the market, the emphasis will continue to be on improving the underlying technology. Unfortunately, given the small scale of effort currently sustainable, that means fixing bugs and progressing too slowly to please anyone, even hobbyists.
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  #57  
Old July 17th, 2017, 09:22 PM
rmorton27 rmorton27 is offline
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Considering that I have just migrated to HS3 and it was a taxing chore though I am now happy with the result, I can't begin to stomach the idea of HS4. The GUI complaints don't resonate much with me either as unless I'm knee deep in a project I don't use the HS3 interface at all. Either HS3 just does it, or I use my asp pages, not ever embracing HSTouch and now with the Echo, I find myself using it more and more.
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  #58  
Old July 17th, 2017, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Uncle Michael View Post
Technologically, HA is much more in the realm of the Apple Newton than the iPhone. There is a great deal of work yet to be done before the interface is the defining feature. (As evidence, you only need to list the many slick designs that have made no significant impact, with most meeting an early demise.)

The lack of meaningful competition to HST is telling. Given the current state of the art, the market is VERY small for HA, and it's not for lack of a "modern" interface. HA just doesn't work reliably enough to satisfy anyone but a hobbyist.

Until HA encompasses a broad range of capabilities in a robust enough package to entice millions of people to the market, the emphasis will continue to be on improving the underlying technology. Unfortunately, given the small scale of effort currently sustainable, that means fixing bugs and progressing too slowly to please anyone, even hobbyists.
In my opinion, the underlying technology is VERY reliable (maybe that's not everyone's experience). I honestly can't remember the last time I asked HomeSeer to do something and it wouldn't (unlike Vera). I think ZWave (especially ZWave Plus) is absolutely rock solid, and HomeSeer does an amazing job at controlling it. I think they should leave the underlying ZWave technology alone and focus on significantly improving other aspects of the software. Namely, the Event Engine, the Updater, the UI, and performance (adding things that I can't think of will be great too).
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  #59  
Old July 17th, 2017, 09:52 PM
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It is funny that we are speculating on the next move when perhaps homeseer could chime in and tell us what the road map maybe. I see several companies that keep it as a secret, not sure why, i don't think the issue are the competition since they have different strategies. I love to see different opinions on this and of course enjoy everyone different input. I wish HS would participate as well, besides we have been together for many many years with them that I consider all of you as a big family. Now let's get Google home working

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  #60  
Old July 18th, 2017, 04:28 PM
waynehead99 waynehead99 is online now
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Originally Posted by aldo View Post
It is funny that we are speculating on the next move when perhaps homeseer could chime in and tell us what the road map maybe. I see several companies that keep it as a secret, not sure why, i don't think the issue are the competition since they have different strategies. I love to see different opinions on this and of course enjoy everyone different input. I wish HS would participate as well, besides we have been together for many many years with them that I consider all of you as a big family. Now let's get Google home working

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I wish HS would too, other than telling us there are no bugs, and yet when we point it out, silence...

I know HS is under no obligations to respond, but the town has spoken and they should really take these threads seriously. We are their power users, and there is a lot of knowledge on this forum.
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