Want to control 220v water heater but no common wire

[logbuilder]

My hot water heater is 220v. The wire providing power has two 110v legs and a ground. There is no common.

I have an Insteon EZSwitch30 #4030A that I want to use to control the water heater. When I am away, I want to turn off the heater to save energy and then be able to remotely turn it on before I arrive back home. The 4030 uses the common for commands.

In thinking about it, it seems to me I could bring in a common from a nearby 110 outlet to the 4030.

Do you see any reason this will not work?

[randy]

My hot water heater is 220v. The wire providing power has two 110v legs and a ground. There is no common.

I have an Insteon EZSwitch30 #4030A that I want to use to control the water heater. When I am away, I want to turn off the heater to save energy and then be able to remotely turn it on before I arrive back home. The 4030 uses the common for commands.

In thinking about it, it seems to me I could bring in a common from a nearby 110 outlet to the 4030.

Do you see any reason this will not work?

If by "common" you mean neutral, that will work. I would imagine that would violate wiring codes, but it wouldn't represent a direct hazzard. The problem that would arise would be a common from a 15A or 20A circuit mingled with a 30A water heater circuit. You would have 10AWG wiring to the water heater and 12 or 14AWG for the neutral. Since there is no over current protection on a neutral, a short between either of the 220V legs and the neutral would allow current in excess of the capacity of the neutral wiring.

[sparkman]

You can't use a neutral from another circuit. It's against code for good reasons.


Sent from my Phone using Tapatalk

[logbuilder]

Thanks for your input!

I realize that this may not be by code. Do either of you have an alternative to using this switch 4030A to control the 220v water heater? Is there another Insteon device that I should be using to control the 220v?

Note that the common (neutral white wire) is not used by the water heater. There is no common connection to the heater since it apparently doesn't need one. Not sure how either of the 110v legs would ever get shorted to common. I simply need it to allow Insteon commands to flow.

[sparkman]

Thanks for your input!

I realize that this may not be by code. Do either of you have an alternative to using this switch 4030A to control the 220v water heater? Is there another Insteon device that I should be using to control the 220v?

Note that the common (neutral white wire) is not used by the water heater. There is no common connection to the heater since it apparently doesn't need one. Not sure how either of the 110v legs would ever get shorted to common. I simply need it to allow Insteon commands to flow.

The other issue is that if the breaker for the circuit was turned off, there would still be current flowing through the neutral, since the neutral is not turned off by the breaker. In this case, not a large current, but still enough to hurt someone if the conditions were right. Could you install the switch next to the panel and bring a dedicated neutral to it?

Cheers
Al

[randy]

Thanks for your input!

I realize that this may not be by code. Do either of you have an alternative to using this switch 4030A to control the 220v water heater? Is there another Insteon device that I should be using to control the 220v?

Note that the common (neutral white wire) is not used by the water heater. There is no common connection to the heater since it apparently doesn't need one. Not sure how either of the 110v legs would ever get shorted to common. I simply need it to allow Insteon commands to flow.

If you have Z-Wave you can use an Intermatic CA3750. It is an older product, but it works well. It is capable of working with a 240V device without a neutral. I don't have knowledge of what is out there for Insteon.

[mnsandler]

Have you researched the Insteon 240v load controller

[logbuilder]

If you have Z-Wave you can use an Intermatic CA3750. It is an older product, but it works well. It is capable of working with a 240V device without a neutral. I don't have knowledge of what is out there for Insteon.

In the specs doc you provided, it references attaching the neutral wires from each line. There was nothing that indicated how to wire it if you don't have a neutral.

[logbuilder]

Have you researched the Insteon 240v load controller

Thanks. Never knew about that device. It looks like just what I needed. Seems as though it gets its Insteon commands via the dual band radio.

If I didn't already have the 4030A, I'd buy the load controller. I bought the 4030 about 10 years ago when I first got into Insteon - years before I got into HS. Back then I was using software called PowerHome which at the time was quite unstable. Never installed the 4030. Controlling the heater has bubbled up to the top of the list. After that will be my well pump. I have this fear that if I am away during the winter, pipes may burst and the well pump would run until it burns out. Much flooding would be expected. Thus my desire to turn off the well pump too.

[randy]

In the specs doc you provided, it references attaching the neutral wires from each line. There was nothing that indicated how to wire it if you don't have a neutral.

No. The Z-wave portion of the device can run on either 120V or 240V. The contacts are a DPST set of contacts. If it is you use it on 120V you use the Neutral and the hot. If you are using it with 240V you use it with the two hot legs and no neutral. The separation between the control and contacts would also let you run the device on a 120V circuit and the load switching on a separate circuit.



One of the hot legs goes to terminals 1 and 3, the other hot leg is tied to terminals 2 and 5. The load goes to terminals 4 and 6.

[logbuilder]

Just did some metering on my 220v water well pump and the pressure switch. It also does not appear to use a neutral. The cable coming from the breaker has 3 wires. One is L1, the other L2, and then ground. When I meter them, L1 and L2 both have live 110v. Dang, wish I didn't own two 4030A devices.

[logbuilder]

No. The Z-wave portion of the device can run on either 120V or 240V. The contacts are a DPST set of contacts. If it is you use it on 120V you use the Neutral and the hot. If you are using it with 240V you use it with the two hot legs and no neutral. The separation between the control and contacts would also let you run the device on a 120V circuit and the load switching on a separate circuit.

One of the hot legs goes to terminals 1 and 3, the other hot leg is tied to terminals 2 and 5. The load goes to terminals 4 and 6.

Thanks for explaining that.

[randy]

Just did some metering on my 220v water well pump and the pressure switch. It also does not appear to use a neutral. The cable coming from the breaker has 3 wires. One is L1, the other L2, and then ground. When I meter them, L1 and L2 both have live 110v. Dang, wish I didn't own two 4030A devices.

A 240V circuit will always have two 120V legs as referenced to ground or neutral. The phase of one leg is 180 degrees apart from the other, so you will get 240V between the two legs. While (by code) neutral and ground serve two different functions, they are bonded together at one point, usually at the breaker panel. As a result they are always at the same electrical potential. Neutrals and grounds are never switched or controlled by breakers.

[logbuilder]

A 240V circuit will always have two 120V legs as referenced to ground or neutral. The phase of one leg is 180 degrees apart from the other, so you will get 240V between the two legs. While (by code) neutral and ground serve two different functions, they are bonded together at one point, usually at the breaker panel. As a result they are always at the same electrical potential. Neutrals and grounds are never switched or controlled by breakers.

Yep, that's just what the meter said.

Since ground and neutral end up being the same thing in the long run, does that mean the Insteon commands could be seen on the ground?

[logbuilder]

Actually, I might be operating on a wrong assumption. Is the neutral required for Insteon messaging and control?